Discussion:
GEOLOGICAL ASPECT OF THE PROBLEM OF DATING THE GREAT EGYPTIAN SPHINX CONSTRUCTION
(too old to reply)
Jack Linthicum
2009-01-15 11:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Elena Blavatskaya raises her head to suggest to intelligent scholars
that the age of the Egyptian Sphinx is about 750,000 years, give or
take a few.



GEOLOGICAL ASPECT OF THE PROBLEM OF DATING THE GREAT EGYPTIAN SPHINX
CONSTRUCTION
Vjacheslav I. Manichev1, Alexander G. Parkhomenko2
1Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of Sciences
of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
***@i.com.ua
2Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
Volodymyrska Str., 01034 Kyiv, Ukraine; geo-***@kiev.ldc.net
ABSTRACT. The problem of dating the Great Egyptian Sphinx construction
is still valid, despite of the long-term history of its research.
Geological
approach in connection to other scientific-natural methods permits to
answer the question about the relative age of the Sphinx. The
conducted
visual investigation of the Sphinx allowed the conclusion about the
important role of water from large water bodies which partially
flooded the
monument with formation of wave-cut hollows on its vertical walls. The
morphology of these formations has an analogy with similar such
hollows
formed by the sea in the coastal zones. Genetic resemblance of the
compared erosion forms and the geological structure and petrographic
composition of sedimentary rock complexes lead to a conclusion that
the decisive factor of destruction of the historic monument is the
wave energy
rather than sand abrasion in Eolian process. Voluminous geological
literature confirms the fact of existence of long-living fresh-water
lakes in
various periods of the Quaternary from the Lower Pleistocene to the
Holocene. These lakes were distributed in the territories adjacent to
the Nile.
The absolute mark of the upper large erosion hollow of the Sphinx
corresponds to the level of water surface which took place in the
Early
Pleistocene. The Great Egyptian Sphinx had already stood on the Giza
Plateau by that geological (historical) time.
In the recent years one could observe the growth of interest
in dating the construction of the Great Egyptian Sphinx (GES),
which is determined, to a considerable extent, by new ideas
about geological factors which could influence its safety. In
view of another interpretation of the geological and
naturegeographical
data the historical-archaeological method for
determining the GES age (about 5000 years old) can prove to
be unfounded. The authors of the report have another point of
view in considering the problem. We have taken the GES age
such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in
one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the
indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from
Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx,
that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of
GES erection should exceed 750000 years. Are there some
geological indications which are evidence for such an old age
of the Sphinx? Consider the brief prehistory of the problem. <more,
pdf file>


Conclusion
A comparison of the formation of wave-cut hollows on the
sea coasts with erosion structures in the form of hollows
observed on the surface of the Great Egyptian Sphinx permits
a conclusion about the similarity of the formation mechanism. It
is connected to water activity in large water bodies during the
Sphinx submersion for a long period of time. Geological data
from literary sources can suggest a possible Sphinx
submersion in the Early Pleistocene, and its initial construction
is believed to date from the time of most ancient history.

http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/64Manichev.pdf
Jack Linthicum
2009-01-15 20:57:33 UTC
Permalink
rOn Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:02:06 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
Post by Jack Linthicum
Elena Blavatskaya raises her head to suggest to intelligent scholars
that the age of the Egyptian Sphinx is about 750,000 years, give or
take a few.
I doubt that you meant to suggest that Elena Blavatskaya (Madam
Blavatsky) was either the author or the inspiration for the article.
You would be wrong. She is quoted as an inspiration in the
abstract which Jack posted, and above which you wrote.
"We have taken the GES age
such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in
one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the
indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from
Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx,
that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of
GES erection should exceed 750000 years."
"Blavatskaya, Ye. L. 1937. Tainaya Doktriona. Vol. 2. Uguns,
Riga, 1008 p. (in Russian)"
The authors of the paper are Vjacheslav I. Manichev(1), Alexander G.
Parkhomenko(2)
[1. Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of
Sciences of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
2.Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
Post by Jack Linthicum
GEOLOGICAL ASPECT OF THE PROBLEM OF DATING THE GREAT EGYPTIAN SPHINX
CONSTRUCTION
Vjacheslav I. Manichev1, Alexander G. Parkhomenko2
1Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of Sciences
of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
2Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
ABSTRACT. The problem of dating the Great Egyptian Sphinx construction
is still valid, despite of the long-term history of its research.
Geological
approach in connection to other scientific-natural methods permits to
answer the question about the relative age of the Sphinx. The
conducted
visual investigation of the Sphinx allowed the conclusion about the
important role of water from large water bodies which partially
flooded the
monument with formation of wave-cut hollows on its vertical walls. The
morphology of these formations has an analogy with similar such
hollows
formed by the sea in the coastal zones. Genetic resemblance of the
compared erosion forms and the geological structure and petrographic
composition of sedimentary rock complexes lead to a conclusion that
the decisive factor of destruction of the historic monument is the
wave energy
rather than sand abrasion in Eolian process. Voluminous geological
literature confirms the fact of existence of long-living fresh-water
lakes in
various periods of the Quaternary from the Lower Pleistocene to the
Holocene. These lakes were distributed in the territories adjacent to
the Nile.
The absolute mark of the upper large erosion hollow of the Sphinx
corresponds to the level of water surface which took place in the
Early
Pleistocene. The Great Egyptian Sphinx had already stood on the Giza
Plateau by that geological (historical) time.
In the recent years one could observe the growth of interest
in dating the construction of the Great Egyptian Sphinx (GES),
which is determined, to a considerable extent, by new ideas
about geological factors which could influence its safety. In
view of another interpretation of the geological and
naturegeographical
data the historical-archaeological method for
determining the GES age (about 5000 years old) can prove to
be unfounded. The authors of the report have another point of
view in considering the problem. We have taken the GES age
such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in
one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the
indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from
Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx,
that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of
GES erection should exceed 750000 years. Are there some
geological indications which are evidence for such an old age
of the Sphinx? Consider the brief prehistory of the problem. <more,
pdf file>
Conclusion
A comparison of the formation of wave-cut hollows on the
sea coasts with erosion structures in the form of hollows
observed on the surface of the Great Egyptian Sphinx permits
a conclusion about the similarity of the formation mechanism. It
is connected to water activity in large water bodies during the
Sphinx submersion for a long period of time. Geological data
from literary sources can suggest a possible Sphinx
submersion in the Early Pleistocene, and its initial construction
is believed to date from the time of most ancient history.
http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/64Manichev.pdf
That the main body of the Sphinx is old enough to have been cut by
water does not mean that it was built by man before a lake was formed.
Parts of the north African desert contain wind-eroded stone pinnacles
with the potential to be shaped into a Sphinx. It is quite possible
that the original figure resulted from the opportunistic carving of an
existing wind and water eroded pinnacle.
--
Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
I spent one day at a college, since dead, based on Mdme Blavatskaya's
mansion in Point Loma. Goofy house, goofy lady and I am sorry Eric
missed the irony of her beliefs..
Melodious Thunk
2009-01-16 00:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
rOn Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:02:06 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
Post by Jack Linthicum
Elena Blavatskaya raises her head to suggest to intelligent scholars
that the age of the Egyptian Sphinx is about 750,000 years, give or
take a few.
I doubt that you meant to suggest that Elena Blavatskaya (Madam
Blavatsky) was either the author or the inspiration for the article.
You would be wrong. She is quoted as an inspiration in the
abstract which Jack posted, and above which you wrote.
"We have taken the GES age
such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in
one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the
indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from
Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx,
that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of
GES erection should exceed 750000 years."
"Blavatskaya, Ye. L. 1937. Tainaya Doktriona. Vol. 2. Uguns,
Riga, 1008 p. (in Russian)"
The authors of the paper are Vjacheslav I. Manichev(1), Alexander G.
Parkhomenko(2)
[1. Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of
Sciences of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
2.Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
Post by Jack Linthicum
GEOLOGICAL ASPECT OF THE PROBLEM OF DATING THE GREAT EGYPTIAN SPHINX
CONSTRUCTION
Vjacheslav I. Manichev1, Alexander G. Parkhomenko2
1Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of Sciences
of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
2Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
ABSTRACT. The problem of dating the Great Egyptian Sphinx construction
is still valid, despite of the long-term history of its research.
Geological
approach in connection to other scientific-natural methods permits to
answer the question about the relative age of the Sphinx. The
conducted
visual investigation of the Sphinx allowed the conclusion about the
important role of water from large water bodies which partially
flooded the
monument with formation of wave-cut hollows on its vertical walls. The
morphology of these formations has an analogy with similar such
hollows
formed by the sea in the coastal zones. Genetic resemblance of the
compared erosion forms and the geological structure and petrographic
composition of sedimentary rock complexes lead to a conclusion that
the decisive factor of destruction of the historic monument is the
wave energy
rather than sand abrasion in Eolian process. Voluminous geological
literature confirms the fact of existence of long-living fresh-water
lakes in
various periods of the Quaternary from the Lower Pleistocene to the
Holocene. These lakes were distributed in the territories adjacent to
the Nile.
The absolute mark of the upper large erosion hollow of the Sphinx
corresponds to the level of water surface which took place in the
Early
Pleistocene. The Great Egyptian Sphinx had already stood on the Giza
Plateau by that geological (historical) time.
In the recent years one could observe the growth of interest
in dating the construction of the Great Egyptian Sphinx (GES),
which is determined, to a considerable extent, by new ideas
about geological factors which could influence its safety. In
view of another interpretation of the geological and
naturegeographical
data the historical-archaeological method for
determining the GES age (about 5000 years old) can prove to
be unfounded. The authors of the report have another point of
view in considering the problem. We have taken the GES age
such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in
one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the
indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from
Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx,
that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of
GES erection should exceed 750000 years. Are there some
geological indications which are evidence for such an old age
of the Sphinx? Consider the brief prehistory of the problem. <more,
pdf file>
Conclusion
A comparison of the formation of wave-cut hollows on the
sea coasts with erosion structures in the form of hollows
observed on the surface of the Great Egyptian Sphinx permits
a conclusion about the similarity of the formation mechanism. It
is connected to water activity in large water bodies during the
Sphinx submersion for a long period of time. Geological data
from literary sources can suggest a possible Sphinx
submersion in the Early Pleistocene, and its initial construction
is believed to date from the time of most ancient history.
http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/64Manichev.pdf
That the main body of the Sphinx is old enough to have been cut by
water does not mean that it was built by man before a lake was formed.
Parts of the north African desert contain wind-eroded stone pinnacles
with the potential to be shaped into a Sphinx. It is quite possible
that the original figure resulted from the opportunistic carving of an
existing wind and water eroded pinnacle.
--
Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
I spent one day at a college, since dead, based on Mdme Blavatskaya's
mansion in Point Loma. Goofy house, goofy lady and I am sorry Eric
missed the irony of her beliefs..
The Theosophy Society has a big wonderful house in Honolulu (Manoa),
just a couple of blocks from the University. Don't know why I never
went in...
Eric Stevens
2009-01-15 22:10:41 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:13:51 -0600, Tom McDonald
rOn Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:02:06 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
Post by Jack Linthicum
Elena Blavatskaya raises her head to suggest to intelligent scholars
that the age of the Egyptian Sphinx is about 750,000 years, give or
take a few.
I doubt that you meant to suggest that Elena Blavatskaya (Madam
Blavatsky) was either the author or the inspiration for the article.
You would be wrong.
You are right and I am wrong. I must have read it too fast.

My apologies to Jack Linthicum.



Eric Stevens
Jack Linthicum
2009-01-15 23:26:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Stevens
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:13:51 -0600, Tom McDonald
rOn Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:02:06 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
Post by Jack Linthicum
Elena Blavatskaya raises her head to suggest to intelligent scholars
that the age of the Egyptian Sphinx is about 750,000 years, give or
take a few.
I doubt that you meant to suggest that Elena Blavatskaya (Madam
Blavatsky) was either the author or the inspiration for the article.
You would be wrong.
You are right and I am wrong. I must have read it too fast.
My apologies to Jack Linthicum.
Eric Stevens
De nada, but thanks for the thought.
Tom McDonald
2009-01-15 20:13:51 UTC
Permalink
rOn Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:02:06 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
Post by Jack Linthicum
Elena Blavatskaya raises her head to suggest to intelligent scholars
that the age of the Egyptian Sphinx is about 750,000 years, give or
take a few.
I doubt that you meant to suggest that Elena Blavatskaya (Madam
Blavatsky) was either the author or the inspiration for the article.
You would be wrong. She is quoted as an inspiration in the
abstract which Jack posted, and above which you wrote.

Here it is:

"We have taken the GES age
such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in
one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the
indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from
Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx,
that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of
GES erection should exceed 750000 years."

She even gets a mention in the bibliography:

"Blavatskaya, Ye. L. 1937. Tainaya Doktriona. Vol. 2. Uguns,
Riga, 1008 p. (in Russian)"
The authors of the paper are Vjacheslav I. Manichev(1), Alexander G.
Parkhomenko(2)
[1. Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of
Sciences of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
2.Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
Post by Jack Linthicum
GEOLOGICAL ASPECT OF THE PROBLEM OF DATING THE GREAT EGYPTIAN SPHINX
CONSTRUCTION
Vjacheslav I. Manichev1, Alexander G. Parkhomenko2
1Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of Sciences
of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
2Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
ABSTRACT. The problem of dating the Great Egyptian Sphinx construction
is still valid, despite of the long-term history of its research.
Geological
approach in connection to other scientific-natural methods permits to
answer the question about the relative age of the Sphinx. The
conducted
visual investigation of the Sphinx allowed the conclusion about the
important role of water from large water bodies which partially
flooded the
monument with formation of wave-cut hollows on its vertical walls. The
morphology of these formations has an analogy with similar such
hollows
formed by the sea in the coastal zones. Genetic resemblance of the
compared erosion forms and the geological structure and petrographic
composition of sedimentary rock complexes lead to a conclusion that
the decisive factor of destruction of the historic monument is the
wave energy
rather than sand abrasion in Eolian process. Voluminous geological
literature confirms the fact of existence of long-living fresh-water
lakes in
various periods of the Quaternary from the Lower Pleistocene to the
Holocene. These lakes were distributed in the territories adjacent to
the Nile.
The absolute mark of the upper large erosion hollow of the Sphinx
corresponds to the level of water surface which took place in the
Early
Pleistocene. The Great Egyptian Sphinx had already stood on the Giza
Plateau by that geological (historical) time.
In the recent years one could observe the growth of interest
in dating the construction of the Great Egyptian Sphinx (GES),
which is determined, to a considerable extent, by new ideas
about geological factors which could influence its safety. In
view of another interpretation of the geological and
naturegeographical
data the historical-archaeological method for
determining the GES age (about 5000 years old) can prove to
be unfounded. The authors of the report have another point of
view in considering the problem. We have taken the GES age
such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in
one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the
indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from
Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx,
that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of
GES erection should exceed 750000 years. Are there some
geological indications which are evidence for such an old age
of the Sphinx? Consider the brief prehistory of the problem. <more,
pdf file>
Conclusion
A comparison of the formation of wave-cut hollows on the
sea coasts with erosion structures in the form of hollows
observed on the surface of the Great Egyptian Sphinx permits
a conclusion about the similarity of the formation mechanism. It
is connected to water activity in large water bodies during the
Sphinx submersion for a long period of time. Geological data
from literary sources can suggest a possible Sphinx
submersion in the Early Pleistocene, and its initial construction
is believed to date from the time of most ancient history.
http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/64Manichev.pdf
That the main body of the Sphinx is old enough to have been cut by
water does not mean that it was built by man before a lake was formed.
Parts of the north African desert contain wind-eroded stone pinnacles
with the potential to be shaped into a Sphinx. It is quite possible
that the original figure resulted from the opportunistic carving of an
existing wind and water eroded pinnacle.
--
Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
Eric Stevens
2009-01-15 19:48:52 UTC
Permalink
rOn Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:02:06 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
Post by Jack Linthicum
Elena Blavatskaya raises her head to suggest to intelligent scholars
that the age of the Egyptian Sphinx is about 750,000 years, give or
take a few.
I doubt that you meant to suggest that Elena Blavatskaya (Madam
Blavatsky) was either the author or the inspiration for the article.

The authors of the paper are Vjacheslav I. Manichev(1), Alexander G.
Parkhomenko(2)
[1. Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of
Sciences of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
***@i.com.ua
2.Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
Post by Jack Linthicum
GEOLOGICAL ASPECT OF THE PROBLEM OF DATING THE GREAT EGYPTIAN SPHINX
CONSTRUCTION
Vjacheslav I. Manichev1, Alexander G. Parkhomenko2
1Institute of Environmental Geochemistry, National Academy of Sciences
of Ukraine, 34a Palladin Av., 03680 Kyiv, Ukraine;
2Institute of Geography, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, 44
ABSTRACT. The problem of dating the Great Egyptian Sphinx construction
is still valid, despite of the long-term history of its research.
Geological
approach in connection to other scientific-natural methods permits to
answer the question about the relative age of the Sphinx. The
conducted
visual investigation of the Sphinx allowed the conclusion about the
important role of water from large water bodies which partially
flooded the
monument with formation of wave-cut hollows on its vertical walls. The
morphology of these formations has an analogy with similar such
hollows
formed by the sea in the coastal zones. Genetic resemblance of the
compared erosion forms and the geological structure and petrographic
composition of sedimentary rock complexes lead to a conclusion that
the decisive factor of destruction of the historic monument is the
wave energy
rather than sand abrasion in Eolian process. Voluminous geological
literature confirms the fact of existence of long-living fresh-water
lakes in
various periods of the Quaternary from the Lower Pleistocene to the
Holocene. These lakes were distributed in the territories adjacent to
the Nile.
The absolute mark of the upper large erosion hollow of the Sphinx
corresponds to the level of water surface which took place in the
Early
Pleistocene. The Great Egyptian Sphinx had already stood on the Giza
Plateau by that geological (historical) time.
In the recent years one could observe the growth of interest
in dating the construction of the Great Egyptian Sphinx (GES),
which is determined, to a considerable extent, by new ideas
about geological factors which could influence its safety. In
view of another interpretation of the geological and
naturegeographical
data the historical-archaeological method for
determining the GES age (about 5000 years old) can prove to
be unfounded. The authors of the report have another point of
view in considering the problem. We have taken the GES age
such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in
one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the
indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from
Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx,
that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of
GES erection should exceed 750000 years. Are there some
geological indications which are evidence for such an old age
of the Sphinx? Consider the brief prehistory of the problem. <more,
pdf file>
Conclusion
A comparison of the formation of wave-cut hollows on the
sea coasts with erosion structures in the form of hollows
observed on the surface of the Great Egyptian Sphinx permits
a conclusion about the similarity of the formation mechanism. It
is connected to water activity in large water bodies during the
Sphinx submersion for a long period of time. Geological data
from literary sources can suggest a possible Sphinx
submersion in the Early Pleistocene, and its initial construction
is believed to date from the time of most ancient history.
http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/64Manichev.pdf
That the main body of the Sphinx is old enough to have been cut by
water does not mean that it was built by man before a lake was formed.
Parts of the north African desert contain wind-eroded stone pinnacles
with the potential to be shaped into a Sphinx. It is quite possible
that the original figure resulted from the opportunistic carving of an
existing wind and water eroded pinnacle.



Eric Stevens
David
2009-01-16 14:50:25 UTC
Permalink
...
That the main body of the Sphinx is old enough to have been cut by
water does not mean that it was built by man before a lake was formed.
Parts of the north African desert contain wind-eroded stone pinnacles
with the potential to be shaped into a Sphinx. It is quite possible
that the original figure resulted from the opportunistic carving of an
existing wind and water eroded pinnacle.
...
The Sphinx
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Egypt/save/payne/payne.htm

David Christainsen
Tom McDonald
2009-01-17 18:12:08 UTC
Permalink
...
That the main body of the Sphinx is old enough to have been cut by
water does not mean that it was built by man before a lake was formed.
Parts of the north African desert contain wind-eroded stone pinnacles
with the potential to be shaped into a Sphinx. It is quite possible
that the original figure resulted from the opportunistic carving of an
existing wind and water eroded pinnacle.
...
The Sphinxhttp://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Egypt/save/payne/payne.htm
That's the best you can do? A random google leading to a random link
to a random high school kid's homework on the Sphinx, complete with at
least two different citation styles, but no bibliography whatsoever?
And nothing from you about what in the link you thought it so vital to
present to the group?

I'll agree with some other posters who, if forced to choose between
you and Inger as a s.a. sideshow, would choose Inger because she is,
at least occasionally, capable of presenting relevant, on-topic
information; discussing that information; and has some capacity to
evaluate archaeological evidence.

You? Not so much.
David
2009-01-19 02:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom McDonald
...
That the main body of the Sphinx is old enough to have been cut by
water does not mean that it was built by man before a lake was formed.
Parts of the north African desert contain wind-eroded stone pinnacles
with the potential to be shaped into a Sphinx. It is quite possible
that the original figure resulted from the opportunistic carving of an
existing wind and water eroded pinnacle.
...
The Sphinxhttp://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Egypt/save/payne/payne.htm
That's the best you can do? A random google leading to a random link
to a random high school kid's homework on the Sphinx, complete with at
least two different citation styles, but no bibliography whatsoever?
And nothing from you about what in the link you thought it so vital to
present to the group?
I'll agree with some other posters who, if forced to choose between
you and Inger as a s.a. sideshow, would choose Inger because she is,
at least occasionally, capable of presenting relevant, on-topic
information; discussing that information; and has some capacity to
evaluate archaeological evidence.
You? Not so much.
You have an axe to grind that is totally
inconsistent with the party mood I am
ususally in, especially now on the Naviagator
of the Seas (Norwegian) while I am en route
to the Grand Cayman Islands...

When you calm down, you may ask me
respectful questions on what I know about
the correct dating of the Sphinx... If not,
I'll pick something else archaeological when
I get back.

Today I met the captain who is Norwegian as
I am...

Dave
Tom McDonald
2009-01-19 03:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Post by Tom McDonald
...
That the main body of the Sphinx is old enough to have been cut by
water does not mean that it was built by man before a lake was formed.
Parts of the north African desert contain wind-eroded stone pinnacles
with the potential to be shaped into a Sphinx. It is quite possible
that the original figure resulted from the opportunistic carving of an
existing wind and water eroded pinnacle.
...
The Sphinxhttp://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Egypt/save/payne/payne.htm
That's the best you can do? A random google leading to a random link
to a random high school kid's homework on the Sphinx, complete with at
least two different citation styles, but no bibliography whatsoever?
And nothing from you about what in the link you thought it so vital to
present to the group?
I'll agree with some other posters who, if forced to choose between
you and Inger as a s.a. sideshow, would choose Inger because she is,
at least occasionally, capable of presenting relevant, on-topic
information; discussing that information; and has some capacity to
evaluate archaeological evidence.
You? Not so much.
You have an axe to grind that is totally
inconsistent with the party mood I am
ususally in, especially now on the Naviagator
of the Seas (Norwegian) while I am en route
to the Grand Cayman Islands...
When you calm down, you may ask me
respectful questions on what I know about
the correct dating of the Sphinx...
With respect, what do you know about the correct dating of the
Sphinx -- the big one near the three Great Pyramids on the Giza
plateau. (I am not concerned about all of the other sphinxes in,
for instance, the great temples at Thebes, in the precincts of
Luxor).
Post by David
If not,
I'll pick something else archaeological when
I get back.
Why not stick with this topic for a while, instead of spreading
your efforts out over a bunch of other topics.
Post by David
Today I met the captain who is Norwegian as
I am...
That's nice. Have a good time.
--
Tom

When Tyrants tremble, sick with fear,
And hear their death-knell ringing;
When friends rejoice, both far and near,
How can I keep from singing.
David
2009-01-26 03:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom McDonald
...
With respect, what do you know about the correct dating of the
Sphinx -- the big one near the three Great Pyramids on the Giza
plateau.
...
The reason this debate is very important is that geologist Schoch
has a much earlier date than the mainstream view of most
Egyptologists, some archaeologists, and most ancient historians.
BTW archaeological context/link is very important to identify
what culture originally built the sphinx.

For authorities on the dating of the sphinx with appropriate keywords,
I comprehensively searched Wikipedia, Google Scholar, Google
Books, JSTOR, Youtube, and the sci.arch archives. (JSTOR was a
bust; Google Web was rightly bypassed.)

For starters, I recommend -

Dating the Sphinx
http://tinwiki.org/wiki/Dating_the_Sphinx

Egyptology's view -
Plan of Khafre's causeway and the Sphinx enclosure
http://tinwiki.org/wiki/Dating_the_Sphinx#Egyptology.27s_view

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q & A -

A) can pollen from the floor of the Sphinx's enclosure be dated?

sci.arch - Ken Down - June 1 2004
Extract -
Post by Tom McDonald
Regarding the dating of the Sphinx, my suggestion was (on this and other
groups) to sift for pollen from the floor of the Sphinx's enclosure, and
then carbon date it.
The floor of the Sphinx enclosure is artificially smoothed limestone.
It has
been swept and cleared and mopped and dusted so often during history -
not
least by the ancient Egyptians themselves - that there is no ancient
pollen
left there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B) are there archaeologists who confirm that major building occurred
elsewhere consistent with geologist Schoch's dating?

Robert Schoch at CPAK 2008 - at around 6 minutes of the video


Gobekli Tepe had "major building phases" according
to a German archaeologist.

"Gobekli changes everything.
It's elaborate, it's complex and it is
pre-agricultural. That alone makes the site
one of the most important archaeological finds
in a very long time." - Ian Hodder

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C) are fossils in the limestone important evidence placing
the Sphinx in the time of the pharoah Khafre?

"The Future of the Past"
by Alexander Stille
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=L4q6Z0s_u14C&oi=fnd&pg=PP15&dq=+%22sphinx+age%22&ots=sb3J8fELFc&sig=oZtavqwbVKSW7KLyn7Wi99aVUW8#PPA19,M1

However, I do not buy Stille's argument because of its vagueness.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

D) can geologist Schoch be refuted on the basis of geology?

Our own Doug Weller gave sci.arch in 1996 references
for geological counterview to Schoch -

Chowdhury, A.N., A.R. Punuru, and K.L. Gauri, 1990. Weathering of
Limestone Beds at the Great Sphinx; _Environmental Geology and
Water
Science_, Vol. 15, No. 3, pp. 217-225.
Gauri, K.L., A.N. Chowdhury, N.P. Kulshreshtha, and A. R. Punuru,
1990.
Geologic Features and Durability of Limestones at the Sphinx;
_Environmental Geology and Water Science_, Vol. 16, No. 1, pp.
57-62.
Guari, K. L., J.J. Sinai, and J.K. Bandyopadhyay, 1995. Geologic
Weathering and its Implications on the Age of the Sphinx;
_Geoarchaeology_, Vol 10, No. 2, pp. 119-133.
Harrell, J. A., 1994. The Sphinx Controversy: Another Look at the
Geologic Evidence; _KMT_, vol 5., pp. 70-74.
Punuru, A.R., A.N. Chowdhury, N.P. Kulshreshtha, and K.L. Gauri,
1990.
Control of Porosity on Durability of Limestones at the Great
Sphinx,
Egypt; _Environmental Geology and Water Science_, Vol. 15, No. 3,
pp. 225-232.

Robert Schoch at CPAK 2007


According to Schoch in the video, David Coxill and Colin Reader are
the only other geologists that have looked at the sphinx specifically.

Nonetheless, J. A. Harrell says he was the first geologist to
challenge
the geological arguments of geologist Robert Schoch and
pyramid-power proponent John Anthony West -

Comments on the Geological Evidence for the Sphinx's age
J. A. Harrell March 2000
http://www.ianlawton.com/as3.htm

"My position was then, and still is, that the degradation pattern seen
on the limestone of the Sphinx's body and enclosure walls are
consistent with a Fourth Dynasty date for this monument. I, thus,
see no reason to doubt that the Sphinx was carved as part of king
Khafre's funerary complex. This interpretation was subsequently
supported by geologist Lal Gauri and co-workers (5) and again more
recently, with slight modification, by geological engineer Colin
Reader (6). My purpose in writing the present paper is to comment
on some of the geological evidence currently under discussion in the
ongoing debate about the Sphinx's age."

Note - Ian Lawton and Chris Ogilvie-Herald are the co-authors of
the book "Giza — the Truth".

Further considerations on the age of the Sphinx
Colin Reader March 17 2000
KEY - please read the whole thing!
http://www.ianlawton.com/as4.htm

"Schoch’s work has received support from two authors: a British
geologist, David Coxill (who published two papers in the Journal
"InScription"6&7) and, following the publication of 'Giza: the
Truth', David Billington."

"According to the well-respected and widely accepted reconstruction
of the climate, established by Karl Butzer (15), the weather
conditions experienced today at Giza have not changed significantly
since ca. 2350BC (towards the end of the Fifth Dynasty)."

I recommend exhaustively searching the Lawton website by taking the
cursor to "Rational Spirituality" on the top menu and clicking
"Ten Propositions" to yield a "Search This Site" facility into which
one
should plug in (sphinx age) for 19 matches. Note - (sphinx date)
and (sphinx dating) are also possible.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

E) What are other important references to check?

Google Scholar "age of the sphinx" - recent - 9 matches but only
2 are important

Archaeological Fantasies
By Garrett G. Fagan
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=sIYpx9mzd4gC&oi=fnd&pg=PA96&dq=%22age+of+the+sphinx%22&ots=TFdAu9UP1Q&sig=z_fdQ5N_C9d6L1BZ2i9RhLa6z9U#PPA126,M1

From Atlantis to the Sphinx
By Colin Wilson
Dobecki
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=nHSJhcOmeSQC&oi=fnd&pg=PP15&dq=%22age+of+the+sphinx%22&ots=P0mAVo76V4&sig=547ufT57xdNIcaT3FhQq3bAs9sI#PPA41,M1

Google Scholar "dating of the sphinx" - anytime - 6 are important

Schoch 1999
Erosion Processes on the Great Sphinx and its Dating
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Kqi8VoNplPYC&oi=fnd&pg=PT5&dq=%22dating+of+the+sphinx%22&ots=R8CV-4gPYw&sig=sVuwgzJronBzhnVWrvhD1M3vOPY#PPA24,M1

EROSION PROCESSES ON THE GREAT SPHINX AND ITS DATING
http://www.unibg.it/convegni/NEW_SCENARIOS/Abstracts/Schoch.htm

brief statement by Schoch - 3 general points
http://www.morien-institute.org/sphinx9.html

comments by Schoch on the geological analysis of
Ian Lawton and Chris Ogilvie-Herald
http://www.morien-institute.org/sphinx2.html

http://www.geocities.com/sunkenciv/schoch.html#conclusions

KEY - please read the whole thing
C READER - The Journal of the Ancient Chronology Forum, 2002 - The
Institute for the Study of Interdisciplinary Sciences
http://www.newchronology.org/fullt/116.txt

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion -

In my attempt at comprehensive Internet Searching I stuck to
scholarly sources but I bit off more than I can chew in a
reasonable amount of time.

Dating the Sphinx
http://tinwiki.org/wiki/Dating_the_Sphinx

"New ideas for dating the sphinx have, in the past few decades,
thrown the world of Egyptology into somewhat of a furor.
Several fairly good arguments for the sphinx being quite a bit
older than is generally thought have been made. The most
recent and most powerful argument comes from Geology."

For the geology I have given the necessary sources. I invite any
interested sci.archers to pick over the geological evidence for the
dating arguments that have merit.

I currently have yet to encounter any killer objections from
geologists to geologist's Schoch's dating. I would still find
what culture built the Sphinx at such a early age to be
archaeologically and historically mysterious.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Christainsen

JTEM
2009-01-20 10:04:04 UTC
Permalink
The conducted visual investigation of the Sphinx allowed
the conclusion about the important role of water from
large water bodies which partially flooded the
monument with formation of wave-cut hollows on its
vertical walls.
The so-obvious-I-should-feel-like-a-fool problem with the whole
"Water erroded the Sphinx" myth is the fact that the errosion
never stopped. Never. The Sphinx itself was "Restored" at least
twice in ancient times, and it's being restored again today.

If that was too subtle for anyone than allow me to spell it out....

As far as anyone knows, and stretching well into ancient times,
the Sphinx has been erroding, and it has been accomplishing
this errosion without great(er) amounts of rainfall or free flowing
water. So, we have no choice but to conclude that if the Sphinx
does not need water to produce the errosion we are seeing
today... and it did not need water to produce the errosion that
was being witnessed in Roman times... and it did not need
water to produce the errosion that was witnessed during the 18th
dynasty when Tuthmosis IV restored it, then it certainly didn't
need any water prior to those times.
Tom McDonald
2009-01-20 23:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
The conducted visual investigation of the Sphinx allowed
the conclusion about the important role of water from
large water bodies which partially flooded the
monument with formation of wave-cut hollows on its
vertical walls.
The so-obvious-I-should-feel-like-a-fool problem with the whole
"Water erroded the Sphinx" myth is the fact that the errosion
never stopped. Never. The Sphinx itself was "Restored" at least
twice in ancient times, and it's being restored again today.
If that was too subtle for anyone than allow me to spell it out....
As far as anyone knows, and stretching well into ancient times,
the Sphinx has been erroding, and it has been accomplishing
this errosion without great(er) amounts of rainfall or free flowing
water. So, we have no choice but to conclude that if the Sphinx
does not need water to produce the errosion we are seeing
today... and it did not need water to produce the errosion that
was being witnessed in Roman times... and it did not need
water to produce the errosion that was witnessed during the 18th
dynasty when Tuthmosis IV restored it, then it certainly didn't
need any water prior to those times.
You have put in words what was sort of sloshing around inchoate in my
brain.

Reading your post, I had a Huxley "how extremely stupid" moment.
Thanks.
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