Discussion:
Dura-Europos Exhibition at Boston College
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Dom
2011-03-29 04:38:52 UTC
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The exhibition contains 75 objects, many of which are from pagan
temples, and patial reconstructions of the synagogue, the Christian
house church, and the Mithraeum.

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/artmuseum/

The Synagogue frescoes can be viewed at:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/artmuseum/exhibitions/archive/dura/synagogue.html

The fresco of Sol and Mithras from the Mithraeum is at:

http://www.mithraeum.eu/monumenta/mithras_and_sol_fresco_dura_europos

Sol is depicted with a halo (nimbus), which was adopted by Christians
to denote Jesus and Saints.

The house church is discussed at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura-Europos_church
JTEM
2011-03-29 21:57:40 UTC
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Post by Dom
The exhibition contains 75 objects, many of which are from pagan
temples, and patial reconstructions of the synagogue, the Christian
house church, and the Mithraeum.
There is no "Christian House-Church."
Dom
2011-03-29 23:52:01 UTC
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Post by JTEM
Post by Dom
The exhibition contains 75 objects, many of which are from pagan
temples, and patial reconstructions of the synagogue, the Christian
house church, and the Mithraeum.
There is no "Christian House-Church."
The Boston Globe review at:

http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/articles/2011/03/25/bc_exhibits_objects_range_from_instruments_of_war_to_relics_of_multiple_religions/

describes the room in the house as a "Christian house church."
JTEM
2011-03-30 01:32:54 UTC
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You grossly misunderstood. I didn't say that you can't
find mention of some "Christian house or is it a church?"
fantasy. What I said is that so such place exists.
Dom
2011-03-30 11:00:29 UTC
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Post by JTEM
You grossly misunderstood. I didn't say that you can't
find mention of some "Christian house or is it a church?"
fantasy. What I said is that so such place exists.
How would you describe the room with the Baptistry and the Christian
murals--a Christian prayer-room?
Poetic Justice
2011-03-30 22:19:54 UTC
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Post by JTEM
You grossly misunderstood. I didn't say
that you can't find mention of some
"Christian house or is it a church?"
fantasy. What I said is that so such place
exists.
Dom wrote;
Post by JTEM
How would you describe the room with
the Baptistry and the Christian murals--a
Christian prayer-room?
Even if the *only* evidence found was 'The Good Shepherd' fresco it
would be a very convincing argument that this structure had early
Christian ties.

Throw-in just *one* of the other frescos and it would be proof that it
was tied to Christianity.

Toss *all* the other evidence on the table and I would also like to
hear the argument that "no such place exists"?

Regards, Walter (Atheist-so I have no horse in this race:-)



..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
JTEM
2011-03-30 23:12:28 UTC
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 Even if the *only* evidence found was 'The Good Shepherd'
fresco
Except for three points:

The first is that it's interpreted -- post Christianity -- to be
a Christian "Good Shepard" fresco. That's certainly a very
problematic interpretation, as it goes on to identify Adam
and Eve in the very same fresco.

Jesus in Edan? That's not right...

The second problem is that the "Good Shepard" concept and
iconography was hardly limited to Christianity. In fact, it's more
than 2,000 years OLDER than Christianity even going by the
most generous (for the Christians) dating.

Finally, the fresco bears a strong resemblance to some
illustrations of Odysseus and the cyclops. Remember,
these images are crude. And many, many such ancient
images do not depict the cyclopes as a cyclopes:

http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/Z42.3.html

Some of the other "unambiguously christian" images are
vastly more problematic.

Visiting Jesus' tomb, for example, lacks a tomb. And it has
the visitors carrying offerings -- another Christian no-no.

Morons can convince themselves that of ANYTHING, and
Dura-Europos proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt...
Poetic Justice
2011-03-31 21:33:39 UTC
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Post by Poetic Justice
Even if the *only* evidence found was
'The Good Shepherd' fresco
JTEM wrote;
Post by Poetic Justice
The first is that it's interpreted -- post
Christianity -- to be a Christian "Good
Shepard" fresco.
[Our timeline is Mid-3rdC] Have you ever visited the Catacombs outside
of Rome or any Roman museums?
If not, 'Google Image' catacombs "good shephard" rome.
That image is very very popular and seems to be exclusively Christian
and I assume the same holds true thru-out the Empire with Christians.
And the Good Shepard is Jesus Christ.
Post by Poetic Justice
That's certainly a very problematic
interpretation, as it goes on to identify
Adam and Eve in the very same fresco.
Jesus in Edan? That's not right...
He's not!!! Use a little common sense.
It's a religious painting making a statement above what is almost
certainly a Baptistery.

Small image in lower left corner; 'Adam, Eve, serpent, tree', Man's
Original Sin.
Main larger image centered; 'Good Shephard' aka Jesus Christ. Accept
Jesus as savour, get head dunked in water, and get a clean sin slate or
something like that.
Post by Poetic Justice
The second problem is that the "Good
Shepard" concept and iconography was
hardly limited to Christianity.In fact, it's
more than 2,000 years OLDER than
Christianity even going by the most
generous (for the Christians) dating.
That old and popular. Then I'd bet you would have no problem backing
that up with say a fresco, mosaic, engraving, pottery, etc it our
timelime within a century either way.
And of course it shows a lone man carrying or leading a single sheep
back to the flock.
Post by Poetic Justice
Finally, the fresco bears a strong
resemblance to some illustrations of
Odysseus and the cyclops.
Your train has left the tracks!

Adam, Eve, serpent, tree, shephard carrying a sheep around his neck and
a flock of sheep?
How could all those archaeogists, historians, professors, etc miss that
obvious connection?
Post by Poetic Justice
Remember, these images are crude. And
many, many such ancient images do not
So the shepard is really a cyclops with two-eyes?
Post by Poetic Justice
http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/Z42.3.html
Let me guess, you googled your butt off and this was the best ancient
image you could find with sheep in it.
And then you went with this Odysseus and Cyclops lunacy.
Post by Poetic Justice
Some of the other "unambiguously
christian" images are vastly more
problematic.
Like men waiting in a boat and 2 men walking on water could not
possibly be showing a NT scene?

Man standing over a bed-ridden man and then the bed-ridden man walks
away carrying the bed.
That fresco could not possibly be showing Jesus healing the paralytic.

'Good Samaritian at the well' fresco I haven't a clue.
Post by Poetic Justice
Visiting Jesus' tomb, for example, lacks a
tomb.
And it has the visitors carrying offerings --
another Christian no-no.
Ever stop to think NT stories here and so it's not offerings?
The women are going to wash Jesus' body with water, oils?, perfume?

How about a sarcophagus?
Or the crude image without detail of an above ground middle-to-upper
class roman family tomb. Possiby because that is what the paid
non-Christian painter thinks of as a tomb?
http://tinyurl.com/4gbndxp
Post by Poetic Justice
Morons can convince themselves that of
ANYTHING,
AMEN TO THAT BROTHER!
Post by Poetic Justice
and Dura-Europos proves this beyond a
shadow of a doubt...
And you have just proved that point *way* beyond a shadow of a doubt.
~Walter



..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
JTEM
2011-04-01 01:03:12 UTC
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Post by Poetic Justice
JTEM wrote;
Post by JTEM
The first is that it's interpreted -- post
Christianity -- to be a Christian "Good
Shepard" fresco.
[Our timeline is Mid-3rdC] Have you ever visited the Catacombs
outside of Rome or any Roman museums?
The catacombs are hardly without issue, including dating.
Post by Poetic Justice
 If not, 'Google Image' catacombs "good shephard" rome.
You're simply arguing in circles here. Yes, Christianity did
adopt that "Good Shepard" iconography, but they were far
from the first, and they weren't even alone in the 4th century,
let alone earlier.

"The good Shepard" does not nor can not identify christians.
Post by Poetic Justice
 That image is very very popular and seems to be exclusively
Christian
No it doesn't. The problem is that it's always identified as
Christian.
Post by Poetic Justice
Post by JTEM
That's certainly a very problematic
interpretation, as it goes on to identify
Adam and Eve in the very same fresco.
Jesus in Edan? That's not right...
 He's not!!!
Sorry, you're just plain wrong. The fresco includes what the
same bible thumpers call Adam & Eve.
Post by Poetic Justice
Use a little common sense.
: The Good Shepherd, Adam and Eve. Wall painting in the
: baptistry of the domus ecclesiae in Dura Europos.
http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2011/03/06/the-vacuum-of-evidence-for-pre-4th-century-christianity/


: At left is the Good Shepherd, a common image for Christ;.
: Below that image, roughly sketched is Adam and Eve.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FytEujfVqy_9o9BCAQ4d5A

There. EXACTLY as I said. This next one, just to be fair, seems
to recognize the problem and invents the idea that it's Adam &
Eve "after the fall." What -- if anything -- so much as hints at this
they of course never say...

: The Good Shepherd with Adam and Eve After the Fall
http://www.proprofs.com/flashcards/cardshowall.php?title=early-christian_4


Ironic. You're denying the two additional figures in the painting,
and what the bible thumpers identify them as. You're in a free
fall fantasy....
Post by Poetic Justice
 It's a religious painting making a statement above what is almost
certainly a Baptistery.
That is entirely circular. FIRST the image is misinterpreted as
a screwed up Jesus-in-Edan-as-the-Good-Shepard, and only
FOLLOWING that everything else is interpreted within that
fantasy.
Post by Poetic Justice
 Small image in lower left corner; 'Adam, Eve, serpent, tree', Man's
Original Sin.  
This "Serpent" is absent from almost every other description, as is
the "Tree." These pillars or whatever they are would have to be
"Trees," plural, as there are more than one.

You're making my point. People are merely seeing what they want
to see.,
Post by Poetic Justice
 Main larger image centered; 'Good Shephard' aka Jesus Christ. Accept
Jesus as savour, get head dunked in water, and get a clean sin slate or
something like that.
These words don;t appear ANYWHERE on the image.

They're entirely made up.

Again, you're making my point: You're not talking about Dura
Europa, you're talking about some fantasy with serpents &
text...
Poetic Justice
2011-04-02 15:55:33 UTC
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Post by Poetic Justice
JTEM wrote;
The first is that it's interpreted -- post
Christianity -- to be a Christian "Good
Shepard" fresco.
[Our timeline is Mid-3rdC] Have you ever
visited the Catacombs outside of Rome or
any Roman museums?
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
JTEM wrote;
The catacombs are hardly without issue,
=A0Of course, when offered proof opposing you there are always *issues*
or it's problematic or whatever.

Many early catacombs were started by Pagans but later Christians became
the vast majority of the burials.
=A0=A0Pagan wall paintings, engraving, etc being miss-identified as
Christian has happened but usually corrected by modern scholars.
Post by Poetic Justice
including dating.
=A0The earliest Rome catacomb (C1 to C4) with Christian ties and the
earliest Christian tombs ID'ed Late-2C.
Also there are 3 Popes buried there with dated inscriptions in our
timeframe.
Post by Poetic Justice
[If not, 'Google Image' catacombs "good
shephard" rome.]
You're simply arguing in circles here.
Yes, Christianity did adopt that "Good
Shepard" iconography,
Yes! And in our timeframe they were the *very vast* majority using that
image!
Post by Poetic Justice
but they were far from the first,
and they weren't even alone in the 4th
century, let alone earlier.
Yes you have said that before (2000+yrs and by other cultures).
And I've asked you (twice maybe?) to back it up (fresco, mosaic, vase
painting, etc) with *that* theme within our timeframe.
Provide the same proof you always demand from others, not *your*
opinion.

=A0All I'm saying 'in our timeline =B1 100yrs' it was almost exclusively
used by Christians.
And the evidence (which you lack) is in many catacombs, some museums,
etc and of Christian origin.
BTW I do know of a C2 Pagan one.
Post by Poetic Justice
"The good Shepard" does not nor can not
identify christians.
In our timeframe it's almost a given.
=A0So back-up your claim and prove me wrong with evidence that it was
also a popular *image* among non-Christians in our timeframe.
Post by Poetic Justice
[That image is very very popular and
seems to be exclusively Christian]
No it doesn't.
=A0You are correct, I misspoke. I should have said "and seems to be
*almost* exclusively Christian.
=A0=A0Admitting when wrong is a nice trait and IIRC in another thread
you actually admitted to doing it *once*.
Post by Poetic Justice
The problem is that it's always identified
as Christian.
Duh! Possibly because the vast majority of times they are, within the
proper timeframe of course.

But some Pagan images have been ID'ed Christian in the distant/recent
past but more often than not modern day scholars dismiss it or question
its validity.
Post by Poetic Justice
That's certainly a very problematic
interpretation, as it goes on to identify
Adam and Eve in the very same fresco.
Jesus in Edan? That's not right...
[He's not!!!]
Sorry, you're just plain wrong.
=A0Sorry my ass!!!!
=A0You purposely Fucking cut-out my whole explaination for "He's not!!!"
(In Eden) (my complete post below).
=A0=A0That's being very deceitful and doing that and then responding to
it would be
lying.
=A0You and Giwer are 2 peas in a pod as you both employ these same
tactics when you can't prove your point.
And No, I'm not going to waste my time proving that point to you.
Post by Poetic Justice
The fresco includes what the same bible
thumpers call Adam & Eve.
=A0And scholars and there is a reason for it (below).
Post by Poetic Justice
[Use a little common sense.]
[SNIP BS website article with an agenda]
Post by Poetic Justice
At left is the Good Shepherd, a common
image for Christ;. Below that image,
roughly sketched is Adam and Eve.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Fy
EujfVqy_9o9BCAQ4d5A
There. EXACTLY as I said.
As *I* also stated in the section you cut-out!
It's roughly sketched but detailed if you did any research you might
know that (see below).
Post by Poetic Justice
This next one, just to be fair, seems to
recognize the problem and invents the
idea that it's Adam & Eve "after the fall."
=A0Try getting all the facts before inventing them yourself and being
shown to be a fool.
Post by Poetic Justice
What -- if anything -- so much as hints at
this they of course never say...
=A0Nor did you try to find out, it was just an informative snippet not a
damn thesis!
Post by Poetic Justice
The Good Shepherd with Adam and Eve
After the Fall
http://www.proprofs.com/flashcards/card
howall.php?title=3Dearly-christian_4 Ironic.
You're denying the two additional figures
in the painting,
Another lie. Your deceptive cutting of my response makes it appear that
way though.

I said that they were *in the fresco* and even described location,
size, etc and even detail (reposted bottom of page) but you knew that
already.
Post by Poetic Justice
and what the bible thumpers identify them
as.
And scholars.
Post by Poetic Justice
You're in a free fall fantasy....
And you're a liar and deceitful.

Anyone can go back to my last posting or look below and see exactly
what you did.
It is you in fantasyland because in your reality you imagine that no
one will catch-on when you *openly* do this and this is far from the 1st
time, I read your posts and No, I am not going waste my time in a google
groups search.
Post by Poetic Justice
[It's a religious painting making a
statement above what is almost certainly
a Baptistery.]
That is entirely circular.
=A0The only thing circular here is your spinning.
Post by Poetic Justice
FIRST the image is misinterpreted as a
screwed up
Jesus-in-Edan-as-the-Good-Shepard,
No, it is ONLY interpreted as that by YOU any idiot can see the main
focus of the fresco is 'The Good Shepherd'.
=A0It is making a simple statement (original sin and redemption thru
Jesus).
=A0It is a painting showing 2 seperate stories that are tied together
and the *much larger scene* is the *main theme*.

=A0The *whole complete smaller Eden scene* with small people, small
tree, etc takes-up slightly more area than just the shepherd alone
does...meaning????
The shepherd and the flock of sheep take-up a *much* larger area in the
painting and they are centered.
And the Eden image is located below and off in a sidecorner from the of
main Shepherd/flock theme.
=A0But you see the complete painting as the 'Garden of Eden'...Amazing!

=A0=A0So in esp religious art you have *never* seen this technique with
a large main theme with other much smaller scenes around it (painting,
stained glass windows, etc) and it's relating a religious story?
=A0They are often seen in structures called museums and churches FYI.
Post by Poetic Justice
and only FOLLOWING that everything
else is interpreted within that fantasy.
=A0Please don't ever let scholars, facts or common sense cloud your
amazing clear vision.
Post by Poetic Justice
[Small image in lower left corner; 'Adam,
Eve, serpent, tree', Man's Original Sin.] =A0
This "Serpent" is absent from almost
every other description, as is the "Tree."
So if YOU don't see or hear about it on a couple of websites it doesn't
exist and it's just made-up by the bible-thumpers...correct?

1st off I'm not going to waste my time for you by searching for it.
And in 14yrs on the internet no one has ever called me out for being a
liar or deceitful, so going on what I have seen and read about this is
as far as I go.

=A0I don't know exactly how it is done or what it is called. But by
using a (hi-def?) camera, light filters?, UV light? different light wave
lengths, etc they can bring out an invisible to the naked eye or a very
weak image.

=A0I've seen many results of this on the internet, books, documentaries
being done on frescos, graffiti, etc and it is usually an outline sketch
of what was discovered which is sometimes overlaid over the original.
Post by Poetic Justice
These pillars or whatever they are would
have to be "Trees," plural, as there are
more than one.
=A0So wildly guessing *again*?

The hi-tec resulting sketch of that small scene is very detailed.

A small podium with a pillar in each corner (no roof) in the center of
the podium is a single tree.

=A0Using Adam's height the trunk is ~2m and the leaves/branches/fruit
section is round like a bush.

=A0Common sense here so I'll try not to lose you.

The structure is an open-air shrine beyond a doubt, this is after all
God's Tree of Knowledge, so *the artist* puts it in a shrine as it is
unlike all other trees and a common structure seen in the Pagan Roman
Empire.

=A0Adam stands on one side of the tree, Eve on the other.
Both have one hand covering their genitals and the other reaching up
into
the tree.

=A0On the ground before the podium is a simply drawn snake.
Post by Poetic Justice
You're making my point. People are
merely seeing what they want to see.
=A0And once again you prove your own point!
Post by Poetic Justice
Main larger image centered; 'Good
Shephard' aka Jesus Christ. Accept Jesus
as savour, get head dunked in water, and
get a clean sin slate or something like
that.
These words don;t appear ANYWHERE
on the image.
=A0If you didn't realize that they were my words for an interpertion of
a religious scene you have a serious problem with reality that you
should address.
Post by Poetic Justice
They're entirely made up.
=A0Those words have been around quite for a while, I just put them in a
certain order to make a point HTH.

=A0You see this is how I'd guess the majority of rational non-agenda
loons with a just a basic knowledge of Christianity and common sense
would interpert this fresco esp in a place of honor over a Christian
baptistery.
=A0I can't envision that ever happening in my lifetime if I always have
my current state of mind.
Post by Poetic Justice
You're not talking about Dura Europa,
you're talking about some fantasy with
serpents & text...
=A0I have *repeatedly* proven you wrong regarding your fantasy BS
opinions using 'proof vs your opinion/no proof'.

=A0Your 'text' issue though is completely off-the-wall behaviour.

=A0=A0I'm done responding on this thread with you as it is a total waste
of my time which I already knew when I so foolishly responded. ~Walter

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[The text which you cut]
Post by Poetic Justice
He's not!!! Use a little common sense.
It's a religious painting making a
statement above what is almost certainly
a Baptistery.
Small image in lower left corner; 'Adam,
Eve, serpent, tree', Man's Original Sin.
Main larger image centered; 'Good
Shephard' aka Jesus Christ. Accept Jesus
as savour, get head dunked in water, and
get a clean sin slate or something like
that.
Horace LaBadie
2011-04-02 17:18:41 UTC
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Post by Poetic Justice
Yes you have said that before (2000+yrs and by other cultures).
And I've asked you (twice maybe?) to back it up (fresco, mosaic, vase
painting, etc) with *that* theme within our timeframe.
Provide the same proof you always demand from others, not *your*
opinion.
 All I'm saying 'in our timeline ± 100yrs' it was almost exclusively
used by Christians.
And the evidence (which you lack) is in many catacombs, some museums,
etc and of Christian origin.
BTW I do know of a C2 Pagan one.
Perhaps the Hermes Kriophoros? Used until very late by pagans, sometimes
misidentified as the Good Shepherd when found in isolation. In the Dura
context, however, there cannot be any doubt that it is Christian.
JTEM
2011-04-03 07:04:42 UTC
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In the Dura context, however, there cannot be any doubt
that it is Christian.
There's a stupendous amount of doubt, ESPECIALLY amongst
those most responsible for fanning the myth.

For starters, it's not a small house, but 100% of the totally
ambiguous imagery appears in a single room. Even there,
absolutely everything hinges on one troublesome interpretation:

"The Good Shepard."

Without that single interpretation, there is no basis for any of
the other "Christian" claims. And, yeah, that's a problem. For
one thing those distinct black lines outlining the figures are all
latter day "reconstructions." And this appears to have been a
most subjective act.

Examining the Adam & Eve figures closely, for example, reveals
a far greater candidate for a face immediately to the left of this
supposed "Eve." And while images CLEARLY show early
interpretations with the figures having both arms at their sides...

Loading Image...

....the new, highly imaginative "Christian" nonsense has
chosen to have the figure reaching up into the tree, picking
some "Fruit."

The most likely explanation is that it is a variation on the
Axis Mundi -- the tree of life. Agreed, this does not rule out
something that may accurately be called "Christian," but
neither does it support such a claim. Another strong possibility
is that it's Malakbel. We;ll never know, but bible thumpers will
continue pretending that we do...
Poetic Justice
2011-04-03 16:22:43 UTC
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Post by Poetic Justice
All I'm saying 'in our timeline =B1 100yrs' it
was almost exclusively used by
Christians.
And the evidence (which you lack) is in
many catacombs, some museums, etc
and of Christian origin.
BTW I do know of a C2 Pagan one.
Horace=A0LaBadie wrote;
Post by Poetic Justice
Perhaps the Hermes Kriophoros?
No. Although I have definitely seen one possibly two of those
statues:).

The one I know of is a tomb painting that is just 1 of the few
paintings on this tomb.

I can't back it up with an image or a reliable detailed description:(
so I'll just have to leave it as that.
Post by Poetic Justice
Used until very late by pagans,
sometimes misidentified as the Good
Shepherd when found in isolation.
I wonder if that saved a few in the Medieval and Renaissance times from
being destroyed as Pagan or pitched into the 'lime kilns'?
Post by Poetic Justice
In the Dura context, however, there
cannot be any doubt that it is Christian.
Without a doubt:)...Regards, Walter



..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
JTEM
2011-04-03 23:46:06 UTC
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Horace LaBadie wrote;
In the Dura context, however, there
cannot be any doubt that it is Christian.
 Without a doubt:)...
The last thing I want to do is interrupt two hands
clapping, but do you have any explanation at all
for the CHANGE in the representation of the
so-called "Adam & Eve" figures?

As I pointed out, there were never any serpent,
fruit or reaching into a tree in the interpretations
of the figures, but your fellow wing nuts have since
added them.

Here's how they were always depicted before Dura
Europos entered into Christian myth:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Dura_Europos_Baptistry_Good_Shepherd.jpg

It's a very large picture -- more than 1.5K x 1.2K
pixels -- and if you look in the lower left you can
clearly see that these "Adam & Eve" figures have
no fig leafs and/or coverings, they are not reaching
into a tree and there is no apparent fruit.... ALL
added to the image in more recent times.

Why do people who have "no doubt" have to forge
images?

Oh, don't take my word on it. Visit the Dura Europos
exhibit yourself and look -- they heavily embellished
the image.

What's your explanation for this forgery?
JTEM
2011-04-03 07:23:28 UTC
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***@webtv.net (Poetic Justice) wrote:

You provided no "Proof." You failed to even offer any
basic support for your claims.

A good example would the the dating of the catacombs.

Nothing. You provided absolutely nothing.

Search on "the good shepherd" on these two pages. You
will find other examples of the "Good Shepherd," other
than the Pharaoh who was the Son of God himself, and
held the Shepherd's staff as one of his scepters.

Good luck.

http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1c.htm

http://www.templeofiarhibol.org/history.html
JTEM
2018-09-29 03:39:24 UTC
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Post by JTEM
Post by Poetic Justice
JTEM wrote;
Post by JTEM
The first is that it's interpreted -- post
Christianity -- to be a Christian "Good
Shepard" fresco.
[Our timeline is Mid-3rdC] Have you ever visited the Catacombs
outside of Rome or any Roman museums?
The catacombs are hardly without issue, including dating.
Post by Poetic Justice
 If not, 'Google Image' catacombs "good shephard" rome.
You're simply arguing in circles here. Yes, Christianity did
adopt that "Good Shepard" iconography, but they were far
from the first, and they weren't even alone in the 4th century,
let alone earlier.
"The good Shepard" does not nor can not identify christians.
Post by Poetic Justice
 That image is very very popular and seems to be exclusively
Christian
No it doesn't. The problem is that it's always identified as
Christian.
Post by Poetic Justice
Post by JTEM
That's certainly a very problematic
interpretation, as it goes on to identify
Adam and Eve in the very same fresco.
Jesus in Edan? That's not right...
 He's not!!!
Sorry, you're just plain wrong. The fresco includes what the
same bible thumpers call Adam & Eve.
Post by Poetic Justice
Use a little common sense.
: The Good Shepherd, Adam and Eve. Wall painting in the
: baptistry of the domus ecclesiae in Dura Europos.
http://historyhuntersinternational.org/2011/03/06/the-vacuum-of-evidence-for-pre-4th-century-christianity/
: At left is the Good Shepherd, a common image for Christ;.
: Below that image, roughly sketched is Adam and Eve.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FytEujfVqy_9o9BCAQ4d5A
There. EXACTLY as I said. This next one, just to be fair, seems
to recognize the problem and invents the idea that it's Adam &
Eve "after the fall." What -- if anything -- so much as hints at this
they of course never say...
: The Good Shepherd with Adam and Eve After the Fall
http://www.proprofs.com/flashcards/cardshowall.php?title=early-christian_4
Ironic. You're denying the two additional figures in the painting,
and what the bible thumpers identify them as. You're in a free
fall fantasy....
Post by Poetic Justice
 It's a religious painting making a statement above what is almost
certainly a Baptistery.
That is entirely circular. FIRST the image is misinterpreted as
a screwed up Jesus-in-Edan-as-the-Good-Shepard, and only
FOLLOWING that everything else is interpreted within that
fantasy.
Post by Poetic Justice
 Small image in lower left corner; 'Adam, Eve, serpent, tree', Man's
Original Sin.  
This "Serpent" is absent from almost every other description, as is
the "Tree." These pillars or whatever they are would have to be
"Trees," plural, as there are more than one.
You're making my point. People are merely seeing what they want
to see.,
Post by Poetic Justice
 Main larger image centered; 'Good Shephard' aka Jesus Christ. Accept
Jesus as savour, get head dunked in water, and get a clean sin slate or
something like that.
These words don;t appear ANYWHERE on the image.
They're entirely made up.
Again, you're making my point: You're not talking about Dura
Europa, you're talking about some fantasy with serpents &
text...
I've said it before and I'll say it again but,
I'm so brilliant that I sometimes catch myself
wishing that I could be me...




-- --

http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/178519532680

Dom
2011-04-06 00:23:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Poetic Justice
JTEM wrote;
Post by JTEM
Some of the other "unambiguously
christian" images are vastly more
problematic.
 Like men waiting in a boat and 2 men walking on water could not
possibly be showing a NT scene?
 Man standing over a bed-ridden man and then the bed-ridden man walks
away carrying the bed.
 That fresco could not possibly be showing Jesus healing the paralytic.  
In addition to the above two frescos, the exhibition also contains the
remnant of a parchment identified as: "the 'Diatesseron,' a harmony of
the four gospels by Tatian." The parchment mentions "a man from
Arimethea [...] by the name of Joseph."
JTEM
2011-04-06 02:26:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
NOTE: B.C., where the Dura Europos exhibit is
being held, is a Catholic school. It is __Not__
secular.
Post by Poetic Justice
 Like men waiting in a boat and 2 men walking
on water could not possibly be showing a NT scene?
You can only interpreted it that way if you FIRST decide
that it's a church, or some such nonsense.

To say that the image is ambiguous is the understatement
of the century.

And it's a ship, not a boat. Actually, the whole thing is in
line with the Iliad. You have the giant cyclops (who, in
antiquity, was often portrayed as NOT a cyclops but a
giant with two or more eyes) towering over the other figures,
the image with the ship and, of course, the woman could
fit a number of scenes.

As a matter of fact, if you asked 100 random people who
had no knowledge of Dura Europos and your colorful
interpretations, not only is it unlikely that ANY would see
the bible, but none would doubt you for a second if you
told them all that they were scenes from the Iliad.

Biblical archaeologists like you -- and the Jesuit B.C. --
claim that if I can't positively exclude than that's as
good as proof, but no real scholar or archaeologists accepts
such nonsense.
Dom
2011-04-06 11:35:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Apr 5, 10:26 pm, JTEM <***@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
Post by JTEM
Biblical archaeologists like you -- and the Jesuit B.C. --
claim that if I can't positively exclude than that's as
good as proof, but no real scholar or archaeologists accepts
such nonsense.
For the record, I am not a "Biblical archaeologists," and I have no
idea how the murals were first identified as representing scenes from
the New Testament. How do you feel about the remnant of a parchment
identified as: "the 'Diatesseron,' a harmony of the four gospels by
Tatian," which mentions "a man from Arimethea [...] by the name of
Joseph"?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/dura.html
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1584632
JTEM
2011-04-06 20:41:48 UTC
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Permalink
This is the people who maintain the Dura Europos
myth:

: Boston College is committed to maintaining and
: strengthening the Jesuit, Catholic mission of the
: University, and especially its commitment to
: integrating intellectual, personal, ethical, and
: religious formation; and to uniting high academic
: achievement with service to others.
http://www.bc.edu/about/tradition.html
Post by Dom
For the record, I am not a "Biblical archaeologists,"
You are what you do, and you __Do__ endorse & disseminate
the words & works of biblical archaeologists.

As I pointed out, the whole Dura Europos nonsense is based
on Biblical archaeology -- the fact that there conclusions can
not be EXCLUDED. That is not how science works, including
archaeology, but it is how "Biblical Archaeology" work.

Dura Europos can be BETTER explained as depicting the Iliad
than biblical scenes. But, the mere fact that alternative explanations
do exist is enough to keep anyone with any REAL scientific
standards from declaring it a "Christian House.... did I say house?
No, it's a church. And a House."
Poetic Justice
2011-04-06 22:53:51 UTC
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Permalink
Dom wrote;
Post by Dom
In addition to the above two frescos,
The other fresco I hadn't a clue about was called I believe 'The Good
Samaritan at the Well'.
I assumed it was the 'Good Samaritan' story (male) that many people
have heard even Atheists like me:).

I asked someone who is very knowledgeable about Christian history.
And it's actually a NT story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan_woman_at_the_well
Post by Dom
the exhibition also contains the remnant of
a parchment identified as: "the
'Diatesseron,' a harmony of the four
gospels by Tatian."
The parchment mentions "a man from
Arimethea [...] by the name of Joseph."
[I only went to wiki]

Anyway in the article it seems that at least 3 say it is this
'Diatesseron', 3 say it's a different version of the 'Harmony of the 4
Gospels' and 1 claims it is a completely different Christian text.
But all agree that it was written by the Christian writer Tatiana (this
spelling is the main one from google).

So perhaps someone:) with an opposing viewpoint could *easily* find a
*reliable* cite(s) that disclaims it's Tatiana writings?

But they would also have to find some *reliable* sources that translate
this parchment so that there is no (zero) NT text within it (A Rabbi
walks into a bar with a duck and...:)
If not, then it would still be a Christian text found at *this site*.

So we have a site that has OT frescos, NT frescos, a large basin too
small to be a bathing tub in an elaborate setting/location
(baptistisms-Christians-major event) and a parchment with Christian text
on it.
And found in the same house structure?

Sounds *exactly* like the Iliad to me:-).

Thanks for the additional info about the parchment. Regards, Walter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura_Parchment_24



..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
JTEM
2011-04-07 01:54:48 UTC
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Permalink
 The other fresco I hadn't a clue about was called I believe
'The Good Samaritan at the Well'.
By the biblical archaeologists. But they'd pin bible labels on
a roll of toilet paper if there were more people as gullible as
you...

This picture actually depicts three people, though the ever
so creative biblical-archaeologist interpretation is that it's
one person.

Man, you're an idiot....

Anyhow, you're making my point: You first must decide that
it's a church-turned-house-or-is-it-a-house "Christian" place,
and only after that is one capable seeing these things that
you freaks imagine...
JTEM
2011-03-30 22:53:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dom
How would you describe the room with the Baptistry
and the Christian murals--a Christian prayer-room?
It's circular. If you don't identify the house as a church
then those things don't exist.

Duh.
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