Discussion:
An update on the archaeology of the 'Trojan' plain at Hissarlik
(too old to reply)
Eric Stevens
2016-10-11 21:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Eberhard Zangger is at the forefront of paleoarcheology and with
Micahael E Timpsin, Sergei B Yavzenko and Horst Leiermann has some
interesting comments on the state of knowlege of the geography of the
'Trojan' plain at Hissarlik:


http://luwianstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Zangger-1998-2.pdf

On page 98 they write:

"It is thus unlikely that the plain of Troy was a wasteland
controlled by the floods of the Karamenderes river (as stated by
Kayan, 1995: 232). More probably the people at Troy stabilized
their landscape that it could be optimally exploited for centuries.
The large number of lineaments, abandoned channels, river quays,
artificial canals, bridges, sand heaps and man-made ditches around
Troy are strong indications that this was indeed the case. Even
more, no other place has so many references to anthropogenic
interferences with the hydraulic system as Troy - from classical
times until the nineteenth century ... ".

On page 100 figure 10.6 is a "schematic model for the city of Troy"
which shows how the harbours (plural) may have been arranged. This is
like no other map for a proposed arrangement of Troy of which I am
aware.

If Zangger et al are correct the current identification of key land
marks and explanation of how the actions of the Iliad took place on
the Trojan plain may have to be completely revised.
--
Regards,

Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-10-15 09:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Stevens
Eberhard Zangger is at the forefront of paleoarcheology and with
Micahael E Timpsin, Sergei B Yavzenko and Horst Leiermann has some
interesting comments on the state of knowlege of the geography of the
http://luwianstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Zangger-1998-2.pdf
"It is thus unlikely that the plain of Troy was a wasteland
controlled by the floods of the Karamenderes river (as stated by
Kayan, 1995: 232). More probably the people at Troy stabilized
their landscape that it could be optimally exploited for centuries.
The large number of lineaments, abandoned channels, river quays,
artificial canals, bridges, sand heaps and man-made ditches around
Troy are strong indications that this was indeed the case. Even
more, no other place has so many references to anthropogenic
interferences with the hydraulic system as Troy - from classical
times until the nineteenth century ... ".
On page 100 figure 10.6 is a "schematic model for the city of Troy"
which shows how the harbours (plural) may have been arranged. This is
like no other map for a proposed arrangement of Troy of which I am
aware.
If Zangger et al are correct the current identification of key land
marks and explanation of how the actions of the Iliad took place on
the Trojan plain may have to be completely revised.
--
Eberhard Zangger equated Troy and Atlantis in his book from the early
1990. I attended a lecture he gave in my hometown of Zurich and then
asked him why he does not go to Troy himself and explore the region?
He answered: a good question; but gave no real information, just
indicating animosity. Manfred Körfer later on called him an idiot.
Certainly there were no ring harbors around Troy. On the other hand
Zangger is a very fine hydrologist and came up with the key for
the interpretation of Homer's Odyssey: pleasant Scherie is an early
Troy, the perilous journey of Odysseys to the Phaeakian shore a time
travel 'avant la lettre', and the Odyssey a modern book. In his Atlantic
book from the early 1990s, Eberhard Zangger gave a very fine portrait
of the water engineering skills of Tiryns in the Late Helladic period
of time (around 1300 BC) when the river Manesse that originaly passed
by Tiryns along the southern city limit had caused a heavy flod and
the dwellers of that region diverted the river around the mountain
whith a some twelve or thirteen meters high and many kilometers long
dam of earth - a Herculean achievement! Now I am very happy that
Zangger finally visits the Troas and explores the region. I expect
much from him - not Atlantis but ingenious old water works by the
dwellers of Troy.
Eric Stevens
2016-10-15 23:15:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 02:36:32 -0700 (PDT), Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Eric Stevens
Eberhard Zangger is at the forefront of paleoarcheology and with
Micahael E Timpsin, Sergei B Yavzenko and Horst Leiermann has some
interesting comments on the state of knowlege of the geography of the
http://luwianstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Zangger-1998-2.pdf
"It is thus unlikely that the plain of Troy was a wasteland
controlled by the floods of the Karamenderes river (as stated by
Kayan, 1995: 232). More probably the people at Troy stabilized
their landscape that it could be optimally exploited for centuries.
The large number of lineaments, abandoned channels, river quays,
artificial canals, bridges, sand heaps and man-made ditches around
Troy are strong indications that this was indeed the case. Even
more, no other place has so many references to anthropogenic
interferences with the hydraulic system as Troy - from classical
times until the nineteenth century ... ".
On page 100 figure 10.6 is a "schematic model for the city of Troy"
which shows how the harbours (plural) may have been arranged. This is
like no other map for a proposed arrangement of Troy of which I am
aware.
If Zangger et al are correct the current identification of key land
marks and explanation of how the actions of the Iliad took place on
the Trojan plain may have to be completely revised.
--
Eberhard Zangger equated Troy and Atlantis in his book from the early
1990.
I presume you are referring to 'The Flood From Heaven' published in
1992.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I attended a lecture he gave in my hometown of Zurich and then
asked him why he does not go to Troy himself and explore the region?
He answered: a good question; but gave no real information, just
indicating animosity. Manfred Körfer later on called him an idiot.
Certainly there were no ring harbors around Troy.
I don't think he was saying that there were such harbours. He was
trying to explain the reason for the existence of the Kesik Cut and
the Yenikoy Canal. The explanation as given in the link
http://luwianstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Zangger-1998-2.pdf
doesn't make much sense to me.

I was more taken with his statement (p98):

"More probably, the people at Troy stabilised their landscape to the
extent that it could be optimally exploited for centuries. The
large number of lineaments, abandoned channels, river quays,
artificial canals, bridges, sand heaps and man-made ditches around
Troy are strong indications that this was indeed the case. Even
more, no other place has as many references to anthropogenic
interferences with the hydraulic system as Troy - from classical
times until the nineteenth century AD (e. g. Forchhammer. 1X50: 20;
Mauduit 1840: 132; Pliny, Nat. Hist. 5.30; Schliemann, 1880: 98).
According to ancient mythology, the course of the Karamenderes
River was actually determined by Heracles, thus its ancient name
Skamander (skammu andros = 'man-made foam')."

If Zangger is correct, at the time of the seige, the plain would have
been networked with canals and ditches and littered with other works.
It is hard to envisage the Iliad describing events taking place in
such an environment with making frequent mention of the plethora of
manmade obstacles. If the events actually occurred one must ask is
this where they occurred?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
On the other hand
Zangger is a very fine hydrologist and came up with the key for
the interpretation of Homer's Odyssey: pleasant Scherie is an early
Troy, the perilous journey of Odysseys to the Phaeakian shore a time
travel 'avant la lettre', and the Odyssey a modern book. In his Atlantic
book from the early 1990s, Eberhard Zangger gave a very fine portrait
of the water engineering skills of Tiryns in the Late Helladic period
of time (around 1300 BC) when the river Manesse that originaly passed
by Tiryns along the southern city limit had caused a heavy flod and
the dwellers of that region diverted the river around the mountain
whith a some twelve or thirteen meters high and many kilometers long
dam of earth - a Herculean achievement! Now I am very happy that
Zangger finally visits the Troas and explores the region. I expect
much from him - not Atlantis but ingenious old water works by the
dwellers of Troy.
And maybe no room for the events of the siege of Troy ... :-(

That would put the cat among the pigeons. :-)
--
Regards,

Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-10-17 07:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Stevens
I don't think he was saying that there were such harbours. He was
trying to explain the reason for the existence of the Kesik Cut and
the Yenikoy Canal. The explanation as given in the link
http://luwianstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Zangger-1998-2.pdf
doesn't make much sense to me.
In his Atlantis book from the early 1990s he published a drawing of Troy
as Atlantis, with a double ring of harbors around the town. This idea
was what made Manfred Korfmann call him an idiot. Korfmann invited Zangger
but this one did not go to Troy, perhaps fearing that he might be wrong
with his naive equation: pleasant Scherie = early Troy = Atlantis.
But this equation holds in a more complex version. I believe there was
an oral epic called AD LAS Atlantis from Central Asia, toward AD mountain
LAS, a vision of the first world as island oriented toward the central
world mountain LAS, a moral tale about early metallurgy in the Alai Mountains
with a warning. The bard of Troy, Demodokes = teacher of people, would have
alluded to that oral epic, and warned his fellow Trojans: as long as you
help foreign sailors across our perilous waters you earn money in a honest
way and your glory will ever increase, but if you get greedy and ask for
excessive fees and tolls, then you are in danger ... And really, there
was Odysseus who gained victory over Polyphem 'Much Famous', a one-eyed
giant who resembled more a wooded mountain top than a man who eats bread,
Homeric symbol of Troy, his one eye overlooking the Troas, and his body
downtwon Troy VIIa that provided protected shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people.
By the way, Zangger published a popular version of his hydrological study
of the Argolis, more specifially the region around Tiryns, in his second
book. Now I look forward to a third book on hydrology in the Late Bronze
Age, especially in the Troas.
Post by Eric Stevens
"More probably, the people at Troy stabilised their landscape to the
extent that it could be optimally exploited for centuries. The
large number of lineaments, abandoned channels, river quays,
artificial canals, bridges, sand heaps and man-made ditches around
Troy are strong indications that this was indeed the case. Even
more, no other place has as many references to anthropogenic
interferences with the hydraulic system as Troy - from classical
times until the nineteenth century AD (e. g. Forchhammer. 1X50: 20;
Mauduit 1840: 132; Pliny, Nat. Hist. 5.30; Schliemann, 1880: 98).
According to ancient mythology, the course of the Karamenderes
River was actually determined by Heracles, thus its ancient name
Skamander (skammu andros = 'man-made foam')."
If Zangger is correct, at the time of the seige, the plain would have
been networked with canals and ditches and littered with other works.
It is hard to envisage the Iliad describing events taking place in
such an environment with making frequent mention of the plethora of
manmade obstacles. If the events actually occurred one must ask is
this where they occurred?
Yes, this more specified view makes me hope for a fine third book by Zangger.
Thanks for sharing.
Post by Eric Stevens
And maybe no room for the events of the siege of Troy ... :-(
That would put the cat among the pigeons. :-)
I believe that the foreign ships waiting for favorable winds in the harbor
on the Besik bay were symbolized as sheep and goats in Polyphem's cave,
while the swift Achaean ships were symbolized by horses, and the Greek
harbor was in the mosquito infested northern shore of Troy, where the
rivers mouthed into the Dardanelles or Hellespont. The Trojan horse would
have been a seemingly abandoned ship drifting by the harbor on the Beisk bay,
hauled in by the guards of the harbor, whereupon armed Greeks jumped out
of the ship, the guards alarmed Troy, the Troian army left the town
and stormed to the harbor, whereupon the Greek army, hidden behind a hill
north of Troy, sacked the town and burned the acropolis down in the summer
of 1184 BC - blinding Polyphem, as it were. I believe in a Troyn war,
but we must be able to understand the symbols properly. The war was caused
by beautiful Helen of the white arms. Does this make sense? Yes, for
she is the Homeric symbol of - tin ... (More another time, my online hour
soon over).
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-10-18 08:00:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
In his Atlantis book from the early 1990s he published a drawing of Troy
as Atlantis, with a double ring of harbors around the town. This idea
was what made Manfred Korfmann call him an idiot. Korfmann invited Zangger
but this one did not go to Troy, perhaps fearing that he might be wrong
with his naive equation: pleasant Scherie = early Troy = Atlantis.
But this equation holds in a more complex version. I believe there was
an oral epic called AD LAS Atlantis from Central Asia, toward AD mountain
LAS, a vision of the first world as island oriented toward the central
world mountain LAS, a moral tale about early metallurgy in the Alai Mountains
with a warning. The bard of Troy, Demodokes = teacher of people, would have
alluded to that oral epic, and warned his fellow Trojans: as long as you
help foreign sailors across our perilous waters you earn money in a honest
way and your glory will ever increase, but if you get greedy and ask for
excessive fees and tolls, then you are in danger ... And really, there
was Odysseus who gained victory over Polyphem 'Much Famous', a one-eyed
giant who resembled more a wooded mountain top than a man who eats bread,
Homeric symbol of Troy, his one eye overlooking the Troas, and his body
downtwon Troy VIIa that provided protected shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people.
By the way, Zangger published a popular version of his hydrological study
of the Argolis, more specifially the region around Tiryns, in his second
book. Now I look forward to a third book on hydrology in the Late Bronze
Age, especially in the Troas.
...
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Yes, this more specified view makes me hope for a fine third book by Zangger.
Thanks for sharing.
...
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I believe that the foreign ships waiting for favorable winds in the harbor
on the Besik bay were symbolized as sheep and goats in Polyphem's cave,
while the swift Achaean ships were symbolized by horses, and the Greek
harbor was in the mosquito infested northern shore of Troy, where the
rivers mouthed into the Dardanelles or Hellespont. The Trojan horse would
have been a seemingly abandoned ship drifting by the harbor on the Beisk bay,
hauled in by the guards of the harbor, whereupon armed Greeks jumped out
of the ship, the guards alarmed Troy, the Troian army left the town
and stormed to the harbor, whereupon the Greek army, hidden behind a hill
north of Troy, sacked the town and burned the acropolis down in the summer
of 1184 BC - blinding Polyphem, as it were. I believe in a Troyn war,
but we must be able to understand the symbols properly. The war was caused
by beautiful Helen of the white arms. Does this make sense? Yes, for
she is the Homeric symbol of - tin ... (More another time, my online hour
soon over).
Beautiful Helen was the Homeric symbol of tin, her white arms tin ingots,
her glittering long robes she made herself the glittering tin ore
cassitterite, and her thread tin wire, by then cut out of hammered sheet.
Her husband xanthos Menelaos was the Homeric symbol of copper, the color
xanthos covering all hues of copper ore, yellow brown red. And their
daughter lovely Hermione who resembled golden Aphrodite was the symbol
of bronze, alloy of copper and tin, of a golden shine when freshly cast.
Menelaos had a slave woman for a mistress - andrasit, a natural alloy
of copper and zinc found in the Troas, or zinc in enslaved form.
Their son was strong late come Megapenthes, Homeric symbol of brass,
harder than bronze, arriving late in the 'family' of metals.

We can't read a Homeric epic in the way we read a modern history book.
First we have to understand the symbols. How could beautiful Helen
of the white arms have caused the Troian war? When she symbolizes tin,
the answer becomes clear. Modern bronze requires five per cent of tin,
whereas Mycenaean tin required twelve or even fifteen per cent, however,
there is no tin in Greece. The Mycenaean tin came from Central Asia
and was bound to pass the Dardanelles where the Troians laid hands
on the precious cargo, abducting Helen, as it were.
Eric Stevens
2016-10-19 01:13:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 00:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Eric Stevens
I don't think he was saying that there were such harbours. He was
trying to explain the reason for the existence of the Kesik Cut and
the Yenikoy Canal. The explanation as given in the link
http://luwianstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Zangger-1998-2.pdf
doesn't make much sense to me.
In his Atlantis book from the early 1990s he published a drawing of Troy
as Atlantis, with a double ring of harbors around the town. This idea
was what made Manfred Korfmann call him an idiot. Korfmann invited Zangger
but this one did not go to Troy, perhaps fearing that he might be wrong
with his naive equation: pleasant Scherie = early Troy = Atlantis.
I don't think you are quite fair there. Zanger was not claiming that
Troy/Hisarlik was Atlantis but testing the idea that they might have
been. The diagram concerned was accompanied by:

"The strictly geometric information about the topography of Atlantis
fits the Plain of Troy reasonably well. The city is said to have
been surrounded by circular belts of water that were entered by
ships through a narrow canal whose opening was 50 stades ($l/2
miles) from the citadel. To the south of the central island was a
rectilinear plain with a trench dug around it. This trench received
the streams coming from the mountains. The alluvial plain at Troy,
however, extends almost 8 square miles whereas the one at Atlantis
is said to have covered almost 88,000 square miles."

In other words the description of Atlantis could be fitted to much of
the geography of Hissarlik, including the evidence of ancient canals
but the plains were extremely small in comparison.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
But this equation holds in a more complex version. I believe there was
an oral epic called AD LAS Atlantis from Central Asia, toward AD mountain
LAS, a vision of the first world as island oriented toward the central
world mountain LAS, a moral tale about early metallurgy in the Alai Mountains
with a warning. The bard of Troy, Demodokes = teacher of people, would have
alluded to that oral epic, and warned his fellow Trojans: as long as you
help foreign sailors across our perilous waters you earn money in a honest
way and your glory will ever increase, but if you get greedy and ask for
excessive fees and tolls, then you are in danger ... And really, there
was Odysseus who gained victory over Polyphem 'Much Famous', a one-eyed
giant who resembled more a wooded mountain top than a man who eats bread,
Homeric symbol of Troy, his one eye overlooking the Troas, and his body
downtwon Troy VIIa that provided protected shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people.
By the way, Zangger published a popular version of his hydrological study
of the Argolis, more specifially the region around Tiryns, in his second
book. Now I look forward to a third book on hydrology in the Late Bronze
Age, especially in the Troas.
If Zangger et al are correct the hydraulic engineers of the Greek Late
Bronze Age were extraordinarily capable. I think that works they
undertook throw an entirely different light on both their culture and
their civilization. Their harbour works imply a degree of maritime
trade which could only have developed as a result of sail. The idea
that in those days ships were principally propelled by rowing is
clearly wrong. Sailing ships with advanced harbour constructions says
much about the culture of the civilizations which supported them.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Eric Stevens
"More probably, the people at Troy stabilised their landscape to the
extent that it could be optimally exploited for centuries. The
large number of lineaments, abandoned channels, river quays,
artificial canals, bridges, sand heaps and man-made ditches around
Troy are strong indications that this was indeed the case. Even
more, no other place has as many references to anthropogenic
interferences with the hydraulic system as Troy - from classical
times until the nineteenth century AD (e. g. Forchhammer. 1X50: 20;
Mauduit 1840: 132; Pliny, Nat. Hist. 5.30; Schliemann, 1880: 98).
According to ancient mythology, the course of the Karamenderes
River was actually determined by Heracles, thus its ancient name
Skamander (skammu andros = 'man-made foam')."
If Zangger is correct, at the time of the seige, the plain would have
been networked with canals and ditches and littered with other works.
It is hard to envisage the Iliad describing events taking place in
such an environment with making frequent mention of the plethora of
manmade obstacles. If the events actually occurred one must ask is
this where they occurred?
Yes, this more specified view makes me hope for a fine third book by Zangger.
Thanks for sharing.
Post by Eric Stevens
And maybe no room for the events of the siege of Troy ... :-(
That would put the cat among the pigeons. :-)
I believe that the foreign ships waiting for favorable winds in the harbor
on the Besik bay were symbolized as sheep and goats in Polyphem's cave,
while the swift Achaean ships were symbolized by horses, and the Greek
harbor was in the mosquito infested northern shore of Troy, where the
rivers mouthed into the Dardanelles or Hellespont. The Trojan horse would
have been a seemingly abandoned ship drifting by the harbor on the Beisk bay,
hauled in by the guards of the harbor, whereupon armed Greeks jumped out
of the ship, the guards alarmed Troy, the Troian army left the town
and stormed to the harbor, whereupon the Greek army, hidden behind a hill
north of Troy, sacked the town and burned the acropolis down in the summer
of 1184 BC - blinding Polyphem, as it were. I believe in a Troyn war,
but we must be able to understand the symbols properly. The war was caused
by beautiful Helen of the white arms. Does this make sense? Yes, for
she is the Homeric symbol of - tin ... (More another time, my online hour
soon over).
I don't think it is all symbolism. There is a touch of the Mysian war
to give it substance, not to mention wots-his-name (what is his name)
who told the story of the Siege of Troy from the viewpoint of Trojans.
Something happened and it involved killing.
--
Regards,

Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-10-19 08:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Stevens
I don't think you are quite fair there. Zanger was not claiming that
Troy/Hisarlik was Atlantis but testing the idea that they might have
In his first book Zangger translated Plato's description of Atlantis
with the rigns of harbors into a drawing and superimposed it on the Troas,
and when Manfred Korfmann's team excavated ditches around Troy Zangger
believed that they were the harbors of Atlantis. Korfmann invited Zangger
to come to the Troas and inspect the ditches that can't have been harbors
because they are to small, and they ascend and descend with the terrain.
Zangger declined visiting the Troas, and then Korfmann called him an idiot.
(Which is how I remember the story.)
Post by Eric Stevens
"The strictly geometric information about the topography of Atlantis
fits the Plain of Troy reasonably well. The city is said to have
been surrounded by circular belts of water that were entered by
ships through a narrow canal whose opening was 50 stades ($l/2
miles) from the citadel. To the south of the central island was a
rectilinear plain with a trench dug around it. This trench received
the streams coming from the mountains. The alluvial plain at Troy,
however, extends almost 8 square miles whereas the one at Atlantis
is said to have covered almost 88,000 square miles."
In other words the description of Atlantis could be fitted to much of
the geography of Hissarlik, including the evidence of ancient canals
but the plains were extremely small in comparison.
If Zangger et al are correct the hydraulic engineers of the Greek Late
Bronze Age were extraordinarily capable. I think that works they
undertook throw an entirely different light on both their culture and
their civilization. Their harbour works imply a degree of maritime
trade which could only have developed as a result of sail. The idea
that in those days ships were principally propelled by rowing is
clearly wrong. Sailing ships with advanced harbour constructions says
much about the culture of the civilizations which supported them.
Yes, I fully agree.
Post by Eric Stevens
I don't think it is all symbolism. There is a touch of the Mysian war
to give it substance, not to mention wots-his-name (what is his name)
who told the story of the Siege of Troy from the viewpoint of Trojans.
Something happened and it involved killing.
Understanding the smybols makes the Odyssey readable as a history book.
Helen was the Homeric symbol of tin. Mycenaean tin came from Central Asia
and was bound to pass the Dardanelles where the Troians laid hands on the
precious cargo, abducting Helen, as it were. Pleasant Scherie was early
Troy (Eberhard Zangger) where the skilled Troian river pilots helped
foreign sailors mastering the perilous Dardanelles, and the one-eyed
giant Polyphem who resembled more a wooded mountain top than a man who
eats bread is Troy gone rogue, symbolizing the acropolis of Troy overlooking
the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa providing protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, and the harbor on the Besik bay
the den of Polyphem where he milks his goats and sheep = where he asks
high fees and tributes from foreign sailors, but the Greeks were not willing
to pay and deliver them, so they went ashore north of Troy, in the mosquito
invested swampy area of the mouthing river Simoes ... And the travels of
Odysseus are dreams of the Troian war, bringing him back to Troy over and
over, Troy blended with other places and periods of time (Homer anticipating
dream logic, the Odyssey a modern book also in this respect). We understand
Ancient Greek, but we need one more translation: from bardic symbols to
the terms and language of modern history writing.
Eric Stevens
2016-10-19 19:30:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 01:07:29 -0700 (PDT), Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Eric Stevens
I don't think you are quite fair there. Zanger was not claiming that
Troy/Hisarlik was Atlantis but testing the idea that they might have
In his first book Zangger translated Plato's description of Atlantis
with the rigns of harbors into a drawing and superimposed it on the Troas,
and when Manfred Korfmann's team excavated ditches around Troy Zangger
believed that they were the harbors of Atlantis. Korfmann invited Zangger
to come to the Troas and inspect the ditches that can't have been harbors
because they are to small, and they ascend and descend with the terrain.
Zangger declined visiting the Troas, and then Korfmann called him an idiot.
(Which is how I remember the story.)
Can you remember the name of his book?
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Eric Stevens
"The strictly geometric information about the topography of Atlantis
fits the Plain of Troy reasonably well. The city is said to have
been surrounded by circular belts of water that were entered by
ships through a narrow canal whose opening was 50 stades ($l/2
miles) from the citadel. To the south of the central island was a
rectilinear plain with a trench dug around it. This trench received
the streams coming from the mountains. The alluvial plain at Troy,
however, extends almost 8 square miles whereas the one at Atlantis
is said to have covered almost 88,000 square miles."
In other words the description of Atlantis could be fitted to much of
the geography of Hissarlik, including the evidence of ancient canals
but the plains were extremely small in comparison.
If Zangger et al are correct the hydraulic engineers of the Greek Late
Bronze Age were extraordinarily capable. I think that works they
undertook throw an entirely different light on both their culture and
their civilization. Their harbour works imply a degree of maritime
trade which could only have developed as a result of sail. The idea
that in those days ships were principally propelled by rowing is
clearly wrong. Sailing ships with advanced harbour constructions says
much about the culture of the civilizations which supported them.
Yes, I fully agree.
Post by Eric Stevens
I don't think it is all symbolism. There is a touch of the Mysian war
to give it substance, not to mention wots-his-name (what is his name)
who told the story of the Siege of Troy from the viewpoint of Trojans.
Something happened and it involved killing.
Understanding the smybols makes the Odyssey readable as a history book.
Helen was the Homeric symbol of tin. Mycenaean tin came from Central Asia
and was bound to pass the Dardanelles where the Troians laid hands on the
precious cargo, abducting Helen, as it were. Pleasant Scherie was early
Troy (Eberhard Zangger) where the skilled Troian river pilots helped
foreign sailors mastering the perilous Dardanelles, and the one-eyed
giant Polyphem who resembled more a wooded mountain top than a man who
eats bread is Troy gone rogue, symbolizing the acropolis of Troy overlooking
the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa providing protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, and the harbor on the Besik bay
the den of Polyphem where he milks his goats and sheep = where he asks
high fees and tributes from foreign sailors, but the Greeks were not willing
to pay and deliver them, so they went ashore north of Troy, in the mosquito
invested swampy area of the mouthing river Simoes ... And the travels of
Odysseus are dreams of the Troian war, bringing him back to Troy over and
over, Troy blended with other places and periods of time (Homer anticipating
dream logic, the Odyssey a modern book also in this respect). We understand
Ancient Greek, but we need one more translation: from bardic symbols to
the terms and language of modern history writing.
--
Regards,

Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-10-20 07:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Stevens
Can you remember the name of his book?
The Flood from Heaven, Sedgwick & Something, 1992. I have the Knaur
paperback from 1994. On page 213 is a drawing of the ring channals
west and north and northeast of Troy - arcs, not circles as in the
Atlantis report by Plato, but still impossible, can't have been harbors.
Also the Tiryns dam is mentioned in this book (not in the second one,
as I falsely claimed). I hope very much that Eberhard Zangger will repeat
his good work from Tiryns in the Troas.

A word on Troy and Ilion. My linguistic studies since 2005 led me to
interpret them as follows: TYR PAS Taruwisa Troas, and POL LAS Wilios
(W)Ilios Ilion. TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and
give, PAS means everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me,
east and west of me, in all five places, Greek pas pan 'all, every'
pente penta 'five'. TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc,
Derk Ohlenroth) Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus - Zeus had
once protected Troy, the center of crossing tradeways, ruling the sky
above Troy, and the Troas to the south and north, east and west,
while Troy was an overcomer itself, ruling the Troas in the same way.
POL names a fortified settlement, Greek polis, and LAS named a mountain,
together POL LAS accounting for settlements on hills under the protection
of Pallas Athene, once also a patron of Troy. (A hill was often called
a mountain, consider that Polyphem, Homeric symbol of Troy VIIa, resembled
more a wooded mountain top than a man who eats bread.) Now there is a
clear distinction between TYR PAS Taruwisa Troas = the wide and fertile
river plain, and POL LAS Wilusa (W)Ilios Ilon = the much famous (Poly-phem)
citadel ruling over the crossing tradeways and laying hands on the precious
cargo, tin from Central Asia destined for Greece ...

TYR PAS Taruwisa Troas = wide and fertile river plain
POL LAS Wilusa (W)Ilios Ilion = citadel overlooking the Troas
personified by Polyphem 'Much Famous', his eye the acropolis
and his body downtown Troy VIIa that provided protected shelter
for 5,000 to 10,000 people

The Greeks used Ilion while we say Troy that includes the river plain.
JTEM
2016-10-26 06:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Troy is a myth. Anyone with reading comprehension
might've taken note of the presence of divine
figures in the story, and by this means ascertained
that they were reading a myth.

Homer isn't real. He's the ancient Greek's rendition
of Mother Goose, no more no less. The Iliad is a
work of fiction attributed to a fictional character.

The myth draws on older tales, most notably the
Egyptian siege of Joppa.

The Fundamentalist mindset requires a literally true
story -- whether it be the bible or the Iliad.





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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/152245024712
The New Other Guy
2016-10-26 06:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
Troy is a myth.
More of your usual BS.





---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
JTEM
2016-10-26 07:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by The New Other Guy
More of your usual BS.
Ironically, nothing I've said is even controversial.

Homer never existed, the story of Troy draws on
older tales & the Iliad is stuffed silly with
the paranormal/supernatural -- enough to tip off
even the most deprived that it's a work of
fiction.




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/34958142519
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-10-30 08:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
Troy is a myth. Anyone with reading comprehension
might've taken note of the presence of divine
figures in the story, and by this means ascertained
that they were reading a myth.
Homer isn't real. He's the ancient Greek's rendition
of Mother Goose, no more no less. The Iliad is a
work of fiction attributed to a fictional character.
The myth draws on older tales, most notably the
Egyptian siege of Joppa.
The Fundamentalist mindset requires a literally true
story -- whether it be the bible or the Iliad.
Reading competence requires an understanding of early symbols. Here is my
interpretation of the Odyssey, first along the symbols, then in the light
of my language studies of the past dozen years.

Homer’s Odyssey

We read the Odyssey in school. I liked the Greek language and the colorful adventures of the hero, especially his dramatic arrival at the coast of the Phaeacians, followed by an idyllic morning in pleasant Scherie (end of book five, beginning of book six). But I never understood what the epic is about. Until Eberhard Zangger published his Atlantis book, wherein he identifies pleasant Scherie as an early Troy, and the arrival there as a time travel 'avant la lettre'. When Odysseus realizes where he is, and what a lovely place he destroyed, or will destroy in the time perspective of the natives, he can't help weeping ... This gives the epic a perspective. Maybe there is a story line we can follow? Could Polyphem be Troy VIIa seen through Achaean eyes? The one-eyed giant resembles more a wooded mountain top than a man who eats bread. So his eye might have been the acropolis overlooking the river plain? And all the strange places Odysseus encounters might again be Troy, Troy in disguise, blended with other places and periods of time? visited in a long series of dreams? A further major insight was the Homeric family of metals (Helen tin, Menelaos copper, Hermione bronze). By and by the epic made sense. Below a list of symbols and Magdalenian readings.

(Homeric symbols)

Polyphem -- Troy, his one eye the acropolis overlooking the river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa providing protected shelter for five to ten thousand people, vulnerable after the Hittite empire collapsed

his cave -- Trojan harbor in the Besik bay

his goats and sheep -- foreign ships waiting in the harbor for favorable wind, asked for high fees and tributes, tolls on their cargo

horses -- ships of the early Trojans (Phaeakians), and of the Achaeans who avoided the harbor in the Besik bay and instead maintained an improvised harbor in the mouthing area of the Trojan rivers near the mosquito infested swamps (malaria episode)

Helen and her extended family -- tin, copper, bronze, andrasit and brass; Mycenaean bronze containing twelve or even fifteen per cent of tin, no tin in Greece, tin came from Central Asia, bound to pass the Hellespont where the Trojans laid hands on the precious cargo, abducting Helen, as it were

Trojan horse -- a beautiful and apparently abandoned Achaean ship dragged into the Besik harbor by Trojan sailors, Achaean soldiers hide within, leave the ship in the dark of the night, overcome the Trojan guards, acropolis alarmed via a chain of signals, Trojan troops hasting to the Besik bay, meanwhile Achaean troops storm the acropolis of Troy, probably in the summer of 1184 BC, blinding Polyphem, the one eye of the Much Famous cyclops who resembles more a wooded hilltop than a man who eats bread (Homer)

oxen of Helios -- freight ships on the Black Sea

transgression of Odysseus' men -- a raid on the Crimean fleet, prolonging the series of conflicts in the east

travels to strange places -- Odysseus dreaming, reaching Troy in disguise and blended with other places and periods of time (Homer anticipating Freud's dream logic)

pleasant Scherie -- early Troy, Phaeakians able pilots offering their good service to foreign sailors in the perilous waters of the Hellespont (Eberhard Zangger), Odysseus recognizes where he is, what a lovely place he destroyed, or will destroy in the time perspective of the Phaeakians, and can't help weeping, then arrives home for good (Zangger) where another task awaits him, taking it up with the shameless suitors of his faithful wife Pnelope

Penelope -- Peloponnese

her shameless suitors -- those who profit from the land without meeting their obligations

Athene -- history personified

Telemachos -- Far-away-war, far away from the Trojan war in time, Messenin wars, Homer of the Iliad living in the time of the first Messenian war, Homer of the Odyssey in the time of the second Messenian war, both compiling rich bardic material, both fearing for the unitiy of Greece

Plagues befalling Egypt in the Bible -- invasion of the Sea Peoples, testifying to turmoils in the time of the Trojan war.


Homeric family of metals. Beautiful Helen was the symbol of tin, by then most precious, her white arms tin ingots, her long glittering robes she made herself the glittering tin ore cassiterite, her thread tin wire, by then cut out of hammered tin sheet. Her husband xanthos Menelaos was the symbol of copper, the color xanthos covering all hues of copper ore, yellow brown red. Their daughter was lovely Hermione who resembled golden Aphrodite, Homeric symbol of bronze, of a golden shine when freshly cast. Menelaos had a slave woman for a mistress, andrasit, a natural alloy of copper and zinc found in the Troas - zinc in enslaved form, as it were. Their son, strong late come Megapenthes, was the symbol of brass, harder than bronze, arriving late in the 'family' of metals.

When the world mountain was swept away in the deluge the beautiful reliefs on the walls and ceilings of the hall within, made of metals and gems, became loads and veins in our present-day mountains


(Magdalenian reading help)

ITA CA, young bull ITA sky CA, under the sky of the young Zeus bull, ancient name of the Peloponnese, Ithaca, surviving in the name of a relatively small island

ATI CA, mature bull ATI sky CA, under the sky of the mature Zeus bull, Attica

POL PAS and PAS LOP, fortified settlement POL everywhere in a plain PAS enveloping wall LOP, fortified settlements everywhere enveloped in walls, ancient name of the Peloponnese and especially the Argolis personified in Penelope

AD LAS, toward AD mountain LAS, land oriented toward the former mythical world mountain, Atlantis or Eurasia, world mountain swept away by deluge, became present-day mountains, possible Atlantis epic by Trojan bard Demodokos 'Teacher of People', warning Trojans of hubris

KAL LAS, cave Underworld KAL mountain LAS, mythical hall inside former world mountain, home of metal people, Hellas, mythical home of the Greeks

KAL KOS, cave Underworld KAL heavenly vault KOS, beautiful hall inside former world mountain mirroring the heavenly vault, a memory of this hall surviving in the lofty hall of Menelaos (Odyssey book 4), Greek kallos 'beautiful' chalkos 'copper, bronze'

KAL EN, cave Underworld KAL in inside EN, Helen, beautiful Helen of the white arms, Homeric symbol of tin; Hellenes, originally miners from the banks of the Amu Darya in Central Asia, first Indo-European homeland

MAN LAS, right hand MAN mountain LAS, Menelaos who got rich by commanding copper miners who got the precious ore with their right hand MAN from mountains LAS

GRA KOS, painted cave GRA heavenly vault KOS, Graekoi Greeks, named for the beautiful hall in the former world mountain according to a myth of the early miners in Central Asia, 'paintings' carried out in metals, reliefs along the walls

TYR, to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)) Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus

PAS, everywhere (in a plain), here, in the south and north, east and west

TYR PAS, overcomer everywhere, Zeus overcoming everybody everywhere in weather and time, TYR PAS temps, French for weather and time, also TYR PAS Taruwisa Troy, the mightys town once ruled by Zeus, itself an overcomer, exerting power over the Troas, fertile plain of Troy

POL LAD and POL LAS, fortified settlement POL on a hill LAD heightened by awe to a mountain LAS, consider the Palatin of Rome, also Pallas Athene, former patroness of POL LAS Wilusa Ilios Ilion, alternative name of Troy; Athene became a fierce enemy of Ilion and was the Homeric personification of history; her name from AD DA NAI, to find a new home on a river that flows toward AD the sea while coming from DA the hills and mountains, also a new home on trading routes that lead to one place while coming from another place, NAI AD DA accounting for Naiades, genitive and plural of naiax 'Naiade'

AD POL LOP, toward AD fortified settlement POL enveloping wall LOP, Apollo shooting an arrow of light or a sun beam toward the place of the gate of a future settlement, marking the place for a seer; faithful patron of Troy

PAD AD DA PAS TON, activity of feet PAD toward AD from DA everywhere in a plain PAS to make oneself heard TON -- he who follows PAD rivers that flow toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills and mountains, wherefrom Doric Poteidas, and everywhere PAS he and his horses come to they make themselves heard TON, wherefrom Greek Poseidon, originally the god of rivers, creator of the horse, faithful patron of Troy, although angry with Trojans for having been too hospitable, way more angry with Odysseus for blinding Polyphem, Homeric symbol of Troy, especially Troy VIIa

CO OC LOP, attentive mind CO right eye OC wall LOP, naming the organization of a fortified settlement, ruler of the focused mind in the center surrounded by watchful guards along the wall, Cyclops, cyclopic wall, the most famous Cyclops having been Polyphem 'Much Famous' who resembled more a wooded mountain top than a man who eats bread, Homeric symbol of Troy

PIR RAG, fire PIR towering RAG (a word of many meanings and derivatives, originally naming the line of head and back of an animal in cave art), signal fire on the hill Montmartre in Paris, France, guiding Neolithic boats on the Seine, while Paris prince of Troy overlorded the smiths and kept the signal fire on top of the acropolis, abducted beautiful Helen of the white arms, wife of Menelaos, confiscated Mycanean tin and thus caused the Trojan war.
JTEM
2016-11-01 06:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
[---snip---]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia





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Franz Gnaedinger
2016-11-01 07:57:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
[---snip---]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
In the late 1990s an English ungentleman by the name of N... L... told me
that Homer was an entertainer, nothing less and nothing more. I see in that
frame of mind a sort of narcissism: we are the ones who understand everything,
we reached the top of the mesa, later generations will only have to correct
some minor errors, nothing really new will come to light. in 1996 a professor
by the name of Fukuyama (or so) published his book The End of History, and
in the same year Madow (or so), former editor-in-chief of The Scientific
American, announced the end of science. I am of a different opinion.
We may feel as if we were close to the top of the mesa, one more effort
and we are there, but it's an illusion, for the mountain grows while
we are climbing. In your case reading alone is not sufficent, you also
have to develop a sense for understanding symbols in early writing. We
have terabytes for saying little or nothing, especially on Usenet, whereas
they had the tiniest writing space for saying it all, so they encoded their
ideas and knowledge in symbols and told stories that have a grammar and
wisdom of their own.
JTEM
2016-11-02 07:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
[---snip---]

You're doing it again.

You're reading a whole lot of "special" meaning
into a simply fact: Humans find things that
aren't there. We're actually really good at it.
We find patterns that don't exist, distinctions
with no difference & even secret messages were
there are none.

Humans are "Gifted" when it comes to reading
between the lines -- but only when there's
nothing written there!

We actually suck at picking up hints. And "Meaning"
is near impossible to judge on the best of days.
Images stand for words or concepts, but those words
and concept will all, in their turn, carry with them
connotations. And, yes, these connotations can be
as unique & numerous as we humans are...

If I show someone an image of a dog, a Collie, what
am I say?

Lassie?

I love vintage TV shows?

I'm conveying the thought of nobility by representing
a noble beast?

Well, what if I'm afraid of dogs? Then the exact same
image probably isn't intended to represent something
pleasant, now is it?

The exact same image can mean many different things,
both good & bad, and you and it can also mean nothing
at all.

....maybe I'm just showing you my dog!

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar,"Freud famously
said.







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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/125503882321
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-11-02 08:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
[---snip---]
You're doing it again.
You're reading a whole lot of "special" meaning
into a simply fact: Humans find things that
aren't there. We're actually really good at it.
We find patterns that don't exist, distinctions
with no difference & even secret messages were
there are none.
Humans are "Gifted" when it comes to reading
between the lines -- but only when there's
nothing written there!
We actually suck at picking up hints. And "Meaning"
is near impossible to judge on the best of days.
Images stand for words or concepts, but those words
and concept will all, in their turn, carry with them
connotations. And, yes, these connotations can be
as unique & numerous as we humans are...
If I show someone an image of a dog, a Collie, what
am I say?
Lassie?
I love vintage TV shows?
I'm conveying the thought of nobility by representing
a noble beast?
Well, what if I'm afraid of dogs? Then the exact same
image probably isn't intended to represent something
pleasant, now is it?
The exact same image can mean many different things,
both good & bad, and you and it can also mean nothing
at all.
....maybe I'm just showing you my dog!
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar,"Freud famously
said.
You are here in a scientific forum. Science, in the most general sense,
may be called the art of recognizing meaningful patterns. Finding
patterns and signs everywhere leads to paranoia; missing all patterns
and signs would make you drown in a flood of sensual impressions.
Blind people who gain or regain their eye-sight owing to surgery
feel completely lost in the world, flooded by ever shifting colors,
lights and shadows. They have not yet established the mental patterns
that make them really see, which is a combination of being impressed
by sensations and applying stabilizing patterns provided by the mind.

Fifty years ago we read Homer's Odyssey in the Greek original. I liked
the language, and especially the dramatic arrival at the shore of pleasant
Scheire followed by an idyllic morning. But what does it all mean? Eberhard
Zangger provided the first clue for me by identifying Scherie as an early
Troy. However, he considered Polyphem and the other strange adventures
related in the Odyssey mere sailor's yarn. Here I took over and identified
Polyphem 'Much Famous' as Troy VIIa. He resembled more a wooded mountain
top than a man who eats bread. His one eye was the acropolis overlooking
the wide river plain, and his body downtown Troy providing protected shelter
for 5,000 to 10,000 people. By and by all fell into place. If you find
my interpretation nonsense, pick up the idea or symbol you find most silly,
and we can discuss it. Just sweeping away all I say, and snipping my replies,
is not the scientific way of discussing.
JTEM
2016-11-04 05:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
You are here in a scientific forum. Science, in the most general sense,
may be called the art of recognizing meaningful patterns.
I don't believe that to be the case, no.

I'd say that science, in the most general sense, is
the testing of ideas.

These "Patterns" you keep imagining are not testable.






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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/152654256623


Finding
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
patterns and signs everywhere leads to paranoia; missing all patterns
and signs would make you drown in a flood of sensual impressions.
Blind people who gain or regain their eye-sight owing to surgery
feel completely lost in the world, flooded by ever shifting colors,
lights and shadows. They have not yet established the mental patterns
that make them really see, which is a combination of being impressed
by sensations and applying stabilizing patterns provided by the mind.
Fifty years ago we read Homer's Odyssey in the Greek original. I liked
the language, and especially the dramatic arrival at the shore of pleasant
Scheire followed by an idyllic morning. But what does it all mean? Eberhard
Zangger provided the first clue for me by identifying Scherie as an early
Troy. However, he considered Polyphem and the other strange adventures
related in the Odyssey mere sailor's yarn. Here I took over and identified
Polyphem 'Much Famous' as Troy VIIa. He resembled more a wooded mountain
top than a man who eats bread. His one eye was the acropolis overlooking
the wide river plain, and his body downtown Troy providing protected shelter
for 5,000 to 10,000 people. By and by all fell into place. If you find
my interpretation nonsense, pick up the idea or symbol you find most silly,
and we can discuss it. Just sweeping away all I say, and snipping my replies,
is not the scientific way of discussing.
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-11-04 07:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
I don't believe that to be the case, no.
I'd say that science, in the most general sense, is
the testing of ideas.
These "Patterns" you keep imagining are not testable.
As Richard P. Feynman said, mathematics is the science of patterns.
First the natural numbers. You may begin with 1, 2, 3, many. Then,
by and by, you realize a pattern: you can go on by adding 1, always 1,
thus establishing the sequence of natural numbers, positive integers

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ...

Then you can discover squares

1 4 9 16 25 ...

then differences between them

3 5 7 9 ...

then differences between the differences

2 2 2 ...

a clear pattern.

Or you can form the inverses, unit fractions (1/n given as 'n)

1 = '1
1 = '2 '2
1 = '2 '4 '4
1 = '2 '4 '8 '8
1 = '2 '4 '8 '16 '16
1 = '2 '4 '8 '16 '32 '32
1 = '2 '4 '8 '16 '32 '64 '64

and then you'll recognize a pattern leading to an infinite series

1 = '2 '4 '8 '16 '32 '64 '128 '256 '512 '1024 '2048 '4096 ...

Another way of partitioning 1

1 = '1
1 = '1x2 '2
1 = '1x2 '2x3 '3
1 = '1x2 '2x3 '3x4 '4
1 = '1x2 '2x3 '3x4 '4x5 '5
1 = '1x2 '2x3 '3x4 '4x5 '5x6 '6
1 = '1x2 '2x3 '3x4 '4x5 '5x6 '6x7 '7

1 = '2 '6 '12 '20 '30 '42 '56 '90 ...

Consider the series

1 = '1x2 '2x3 '3x4 '4x5 '5x6 '6x7 '7x8 '8x9 '9x10 '10x11 ...

Leave out each product containing the number 4 or a multiple of 4,
and you obtain a series involving a famous number

'1x2 '2x3 '5x6 '6x7 '9x10 '10x11 ... = pi/4

Turning this series into another stairway approximating pi

8 times '1x3 '16
8 times '1x3 '5x7 '32
8 times '1x3 '5x7 '9x11 '48
8 times '1x3 '5x7 '9x11 '13x15 '64
8 times '1x3 '5x7 '9x11 '13x15 '17x19 '96

Patterns are endlessly fascinating for mathematicians. First one glimpses
a possible pattern, checks on it, and if it is a real pattern one tries
to formulate it and gain an idea from it, which then leads to a hypothesis
one can test. Currently the most advanced problem in mathematics is the
question about a possible pattern of the prime numbers

2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29 31 37 41 43 ...

A good candidate is Riemann's zeta function. If the Riemann Conjecture
can be proved, we'll have a way to establish a pattern of the primes.
The very best minds in modern mathematics are devoted to that problem:
finding a pattern in the seemingly coincidental distribution of the
prime numbers among the natural numbers.
JTEM
2016-11-05 06:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
As Richard P. Feynman said, mathematics is the science of patterns.
That's great, but it just so happens that the topic is
not mathematics. You were probably led astray -- off
of the topic -- due to the fact that you are a nut job.





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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/152744437583
Franz Gnaedinger
2016-11-07 07:56:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
That's great, but it just so happens that the topic is
not mathematics. You were probably led astray -- off
of the topic -- due to the fact that you are a nut job.
Leonardo da Vinci said that no science can do without mathematics.
Mathematics is a form of logic, the logic of building and maintaining
based on the formula a = a while art and life and nature follow a wider
formula, Goethe's world formula: all is equal, all unequal ... As long
as we confine ourselves to the logic of a = a or stand close to that
formula, we are in the realm of science, and the origin of science is
the recognition of patterns. A pattern we can regularly see on Usenet
are invectives replacing arguments. You are one more case of that
behaving.
JTEM
2017-01-20 21:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Leonardo da Vinci said that no science can do without mathematics.
Thanks. Now, back on topic: The legend of Troy
is based on the more ancient Egyptian story of
the siege of Joppa, where the Egyptians smuggled
troops through the gates inside of baskets.

NOTE: You had to know that the Iliad is a myth
because of the inclusion of magic/deities.





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Franz Gnaedinger
2017-01-23 08:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
Thanks. Now, back on topic: The legend of Troy
is based on the more ancient Egyptian story of
the siege of Joppa, where the Egyptians smuggled
troops through the gates inside of baskets.
And in the case of Troy the famous horse was a ship - seemingly abandoned,
hauled in by the Trojans into the harbor of the Besik bay, whereupon the
Achaeans leapt out of the deceptive trophy, the guards of the harbor
alarmed Troy, some three kilometers away, the Trojan army left their
citadel and run to the harbor, so the hidden Achaeans could storm
the acropolis and set it on fire - blinding Polyphem, as it were.
Ships in the Odyssey were seen as animals, goats and sheep milked by
Polypehm were foreign ships, horses were Greek ships, including the
Trojan horse, and oxen were heavy loadships transporting metals on the
Black Sea - after the end of the Trojan war, some Greek soldiers raided
a fleet of those ships, which caused new problems for the Greeks and
forced them to stay for ten more years in the region, far from home,
as we are told right at the beginning of the epic.
JTEM
2017-01-26 22:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
And in the case of Troy the famous horse was
It's a fairy tale. You're defending a story that someone
made up with something else that you made up.





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Franz Gnaedinger
2017-01-27 08:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
It's a fairy tale. You're defending a story that someone
made up with something else that you made up.
The giraffe had been considered a dumb animal, for it doesn't even
communicate. Then a biologist discovered that they do well communicate,
however, on a very low frequency going along with their long neck.
Now who is the dumb one, the giraffe emitting low frequency sounds,
or Homo sapiens who believes everything must be done his way? and
bards of a former time must have conveyed history the way we do?
no other way allowed? use of symbols forbidden? because we are
the very crown of creation and they were zilch?
JTEM
2017-01-27 16:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The giraffe had been considered a dumb animal
You must be awfully lonely to spend your time on this.

Perhaps what you really need to do is get out of the house.





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Franz Gnaedinger
2017-01-28 09:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
You must be awfully lonely to spend your time on this.
Perhaps what you really need to do is get out of the house.
Hermeneutics is my profession, understanding early writing and other ways
of conveying a message. We hope to one day not only receive but also
decipher and comprehend the messages of an extra-terrestrian civilization.
How can we hope to succeed if we don't even understand the legacy of our
forebears? And why do you snip my quotes? in order to make me look
ridiculous right from the beginning?
JTEM
2017-01-29 02:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Hermeneutics is my profession
Right up there with reading tea leafs, that is.




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/156508694733
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-01-30 07:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
Right up there with reading tea leafs, that is.
My studies of half a century led me to the triangle of language whose
corners are

life with needs and wishes

mathematics, logic of building and maintaining,
based on the formula a = a

art as human measure in a technical world,
based on Goethe's formula all is equal, all unequal ...
a formula known to artists of all times

Reading in my tea leafs I assume that you might be one of the many
computer programmers populating the Usenet. If so, your way of thinking
is close to the basic mathematical formula a = a while you rather have
a problem understanding symbols, for example horse and sheep and goat and
oxen being ships, or a one-eyed giant being a town, just two of many symbols
in Homer. Human civilization requires both technology based on mathematical
logic, and a human measure in our technical world based on the logic of
equal unequal, the logic of life and art. Reducing logic to mathematical
logic alone is a big problem of our schools, for many children who end
up fearing and hating mathematics. The other side of logic should be
trained and honored as well. So yes, hermeneutics is relevant.
JTEM
2017-01-30 21:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
My studies of half a century
You can study tea leafs for three quarters of a century
and they're still going to be tea leafs.





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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/102563637443
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-01-31 07:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
You can study tea leafs for three quarters of a century
and they're still going to be tea leafs.
Marcel Duchamp compared the work of art to tea leafs. One has to pour
hot water on them so they unfold their aromata and healing powers.
The hot water is hermeneutics, bringing ancient art and literature
back to life.
JTEM
2017-01-31 16:42:27 UTC
Permalink
You're a nutter.




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/146370374133
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-02-01 08:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
You're a nutter.
Many agents of entropy, some blow up ancient monuments, others riducle
attempts at making sense of early art and literature.
JTEM
2017-02-01 08:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Many agents of entropy
Troy is still a myth. Nothing has changed.




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/156662607427
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-02-02 07:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
Troy is still a myth. Nothing has changed.
Archaeology proves the contrary.

Back to Marcel Duchamp. He developed (I found) a language of symbols,
among them water for life, warmth for liveliness, air for spirit and
inspiration (Hebrew ruach and Greek pneuma and Latin spiritus have all
the meaning of wind and breath and spirit).

Let me apply two of these symbols, warmth for liveliness and air
for spirit and inspiration, to an iconoclastic joke of Duchamp
who added moustache and goatee to a reproduction of the Mona Lisa.
Below he wrote five letters: L.H.O.O.Q. Pronounce them in the French
way and you get a rude line: Elle a chaud au cul. Yet if you pronounce
them in the English way you have the imperative LOOK. The very fine ends
of the moustache point exactly to her pupils, and the goatee points to
her resting hands. If you rest before the painting, and look patiently
into the eyes of the Mona Lisa, you can see her real smile, you project
your own life into the picture, the woman becomes alive, and a silent
communication unfolds. Now read the five letters above in an inspired way,
by adding air to the French reading, so you have: Elle a chaud occulaire,
she has warm = appears lively via her eyes ... The real joke about the
seemingly iconoclastic joke is that Marcel Duchamp provided the first
real interpretation of the Mona Lisa painting as an allegory of seeing.
Duchamp also wrote Paris on the postcard, referrring not only to the city
but also to Paris of Troy who abducted beautiful Helen. This was a central
topic of Duchamp: the work of art destined for the public is understood
by the artist alone, abducted, as it were. Consider the title of the Great
Glass:

La mariée mise a nu / par ses célibataires / même, Marcel Duchamp
Mona Lisa vue / par ses spectateurs / m'aime, Marcel Duchamp

Mona Lisa destined for the public, her bachelors, loves Leonardo and in his wake Duchamp, smiles at him ... Even the most famous painting in the world
is not understood, only by a fellow artist, successor of the painter.

The same holds for literature, the symbols in the founding epics of Europe
are still not understood.
JTEM
2017-02-02 18:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by JTEM
Troy is still a myth. Nothing has changed.
Archaeology proves the contrary.
No it doesn't. You're a fool.
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Back to Marcel Duchamp. He developed (I found) a language of symbols,
among them water for life, warmth for liveliness, air for spirit and
inspiration (Hebrew ruach and Greek pneuma and Latin spiritus have all
the meaning of wind and breath and spirit).
Did I say "Fool"? I meant "Lunatic." You're a lunatic.




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/156698724658
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-02-03 08:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
No it doesn't. You're a fool.
For a long time Troy had been assumed to be a better hamlet. Manfred
Korfmann's team excavated downton Troy VIIa that provided protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, and now Troy is considered to
have been an important trading center of the Bronze Age. Then there
is the question of tin. There is no tin in Greece. Mycenaean tin
contains 12 to 15 per cent of tin (modern bronze only 5 per cent)
but where did it come from? Central Asia, and so it was bound to
pass the Dardanelles where the Trojans laid hands on the precious
cargo - abducting Helen, as it were, Homeric symbol of tin, her white
arms tin ingots, her glittering long robes she made herself the glittering
tin ore cassitterite, her thread tin wire, by then cut out of hammered tin
sheet; her husband xanthos Menelaos, Homeric symbol of copper, the color
xanthos covering all hues of copper ore, yellow brown red; and their
daughter lovely Hermione who resembled golden Aphrodite the Homeric symbol
of bronze, alloy of copper and tin, of a golden shine when freshly cast ...

You call Homer's Odyssey a fairy tale. Fairy tales convey more history
than you might assume. For example the one of Snow White, where copper
is symbolized by the beautiful queen looking at herself in a mirror
of polished copper (we have beautiful Celtic examples of such mirrors),
copper having been the most precious = beautiful material for thousands
of years. But then came tin, symbolized by Snow White (pendant to Homer's
Helen of the white arms), even more precious = beautiful than copper,
and made the queen jealous. She poisend Snow White, which is a reference
to arsenic that was used in the Chalcolithic (Copper Age) to harden copper.
Snow White lived behind seven mountains = in the distant Ore Mountains
of Bohemia, rich in tin. And the seven dwarfs are miners, grumpy but of
a good heart, small as miners had to be, boys working in the mines from
an age of fourteen years onward, no sunlight, not enough food, kept
them small, dwarfish, poor guys. The fairy tale is a hommage to them
who did so much for the luxury we enjoy nowadays.

A fairy tale works on many levels, sometimes, or even often, also on
the one of history.
Post by JTEM
Did I say "Fool"? I meant "Lunatic." You're a lunatic.
Thanks for calling me what Homer had been called, a lunatic.
JTEM
2017-02-04 05:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
For a long time Troy had been assumed to be a better hamlet. Manfred
Korfmann's team excavated downton Troy VIIa that provided
Outside kindergarten's & mental institutions, the above
is what is known as "A Circular Argument"... and a rather
obvious one at that.

Troy is a myth. Schliemann was a known fraud.






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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/156760213219
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-02-04 09:13:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by JTEM
No it doesn't. You're a fool.
For a long time Troy had been assumed to be a better hamlet. Manfred
Korfmann's team excavated downton Troy VIIa that provided protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, and now Troy is considered to
have been an important trading center of the Bronze Age. Then there
is the question of tin. There is no tin in Greece. Mycenaean tin
contains 12 to 15 per cent of tin (modern bronze only 5 per cent)
but where did it come from? Central Asia, and so it was bound to
pass the Dardanelles where the Trojans laid hands on the precious
cargo - abducting Helen, as it were, Homeric symbol of tin, her white
arms tin ingots, her glittering long robes she made herself the glittering
tin ore cassitterite, her thread tin wire, by then cut out of hammered tin
sheet; her husband xanthos Menelaos, Homeric symbol of copper, the color
xanthos covering all hues of copper ore, yellow brown red; and their
daughter lovely Hermione who resembled golden Aphrodite the Homeric symbol
of bronze, alloy of copper and tin, of a golden shine when freshly cast ...
You call Homer's Odyssey a fairy tale. Fairy tales convey more history
than you might assume. For example the one of Snow White, where copper
is symbolized by the beautiful queen looking at herself in a mirror
of polished copper (we have beautiful Celtic examples of such mirrors),
copper having been the most precious = beautiful material for thousands
of years. But then came tin, symbolized by Snow White (pendant to Homer's
Helen of the white arms), even more precious = beautiful than copper,
and made the queen jealous. She poisend Snow White, which is a reference
to arsenic that was used in the Chalcolithic (Copper Age) to harden copper.
Snow White lived behind seven mountains = in the distant Ore Mountains
of Bohemia, rich in tin. And the seven dwarfs are miners, grumpy but of
a good heart, small as miners had to be, boys working in the mines from
an age of fourteen years onward, no sunlight, not enough food, kept
them small, dwarfish, poor guys. The fairy tale is a hommage to them
who did so much for the luxury we enjoy nowadays.
A fairy tale works on many levels, sometimes, or even often, also on
the one of history.
Post by JTEM
Did I say "Fool"? I meant "Lunatic." You're a lunatic.
Thanks for calling me what Homer had been called, a lunatic.
From reading the Iliad around the turn of century and a passage near
the ship list I concluded that Homer 1 (of the Iliad) was a bard from
Mantineia on the Peloponnese who spent a lot of time in archives and
was called a lunatic: He can hardly see, and ruins his eyesight further
by spending whole days and weeks in the dungeon of the archive. Did
you hear the latest? He claims that he can see four hundred years into
the past and bring back to life the ancient heroes. What a crazy fool!

Homer 2 of the Odyssey would have been the son of a traveling salesman
from the Peloponnese and a mother from the Ionian colony in Smyrna on
the western shore of Anatolia. He has an alter ego in the epic: Hermes,
messenger of the gods (bard conveying divine messages to the audience),
moving swiftly from one place to another on a pair of winged golden
sandals (poetic talent), can cast a fog on the eyes of people (abducting
the audience to Troy which they don't recongize, as it is a Troy in disguise
and blended with other places and periods of time, beginning with the one-
eyed giant Polyphem who resembles more a wooded mountain top than a man
who eats bread) and was the patron of thieves (Ricardo Mansilla of the
Free University Mexico run a DNA taxonomy program on the Odyssey and
found material of at least a dozen if not even sixteen different bards).

Homer 1 of the Iliad would have flourished in the time of the first
Messenian war; Homer 2, compiler of the Odyssey, would have flourished
in the time of the second Messenian war, and both feared that the Greek
civilization could fall apart. So they revived the old spirit, Odysseus
representing Greece in the time of the Trojan war, Telemachos representing
Greece in the time of the Messenain wars - Telemachos 'far away war',
far away in time and space from Troy, but again a menace, and Gyges
on the horizon.
JTEM
2017-02-05 18:11:15 UTC
Permalink
People like you read the bible and then
convince yourselves that you dug up
"David's Palace" or a chariot for the
Exodus...

Troy is a myth. Most people can tell just
from the presence of the pagan gods in the
story. That much alone tells most people
that it's a work of fiction, and not a
literally true history.

Most people.




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/156814728603
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-02-06 08:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
People like you read the bible and then
convince yourselves that you dug up
"David's Palace" or a chariot for the
Exodus...
Troy is a myth. Most people can tell just
from the presence of the pagan gods in the
story. That much alone tells most people
that it's a work of fiction, and not a
literally true history.
Most people.
Since you mention the Bible, have a look at how I explain the high age
of Methuselah who begot Lamech when he was 187 years old, and reached
an age of 969 years: in my thread Scanning the Pyramids, posted minutes
ago. The Bible is the same as Homer, we have to read it properly, not
in the way of a modern book of history but in the way of early scribes
who had little writing space for saying it all, and therefore used
symbols, and combined layers of meaning, and told stories that are best
remembered.
JTEM
2017-02-06 15:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Troy is a myth. Only those inflicted with a
literal, fundamentalist mindset could walk
around thinking it was real history.




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/156888076504
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-02-07 08:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by JTEM
Troy is a myth. Only those inflicted with a
literal, fundamentalist mindset could walk
around thinking it was real history.
I surrender. Schliemann was a fraud, as you said. He ordered five
shiploads of stone blocks from Germany, and then, most secretly,
in a dark night, they built the ruins of a forteress, covered it with
sand, planted some shrubs and trees, and then, by daylight, he excavated
'Troy' and was celebrated all over the world. Manfred Korfmann did the
same with Downtown Troy VIIa that provided protected shelter for 5,000
to 10,000 people - he made the ruins and traces himself. All a big
swindle. The Hisarlik was nothing than a hill where sheep and goats
were grazing until the 19th century AD. And the moon landing was
a Hollywood swindle, arranged in the same spirit of making big money.
Eric Stevens
2017-02-07 09:00:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Feb 2017 00:45:59 -0800 (PST), Franz Gnaedinger
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Post by JTEM
Troy is a myth. Only those inflicted with a
literal, fundamentalist mindset could walk
around thinking it was real history.
I surrender. Schliemann was a fraud, as you said. He ordered five
shiploads of stone blocks from Germany, and then, most secretly,
in a dark night, they built the ruins of a forteress, covered it with
sand, planted some shrubs and trees, and then, by daylight, he excavated
'Troy' and was celebrated all over the world. Manfred Korfmann did the
same with Downtown Troy VIIa that provided protected shelter for 5,000
to 10,000 people - he made the ruins and traces himself. All a big
swindle. The Hisarlik was nothing than a hill where sheep and goats
were grazing until the 19th century AD. And the moon landing was
a Hollywood swindle, arranged in the same spirit of making big money.
The fact that Schlieman excavated a site which has been inhabited for
centuries does not make that site Troy.
--
Regards,

Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-02-09 08:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Stevens
The fact that Schlieman excavated a site which has been inhabited for
centuries does not make that site Troy.
The geography of ancient Wilusa (W)Ilios Ilion in the fertile Taruwisa
Troas and the story of Polyphem in my reading are a perfect match:
the one-eyed giant who resembles more a wooded mountain top than a man
who eats bread symbolizing Ilion VIIa, his one eye the acropolis overlooking
the wide river plain, his body downtown Ilion VIIa providing protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, his den the harbor on the Besik bay
some three kilometers west of Ilion, his goats and sheep foreign ships
waiting for favorable wind in the harbor, their milk high fees the foreign
sailors had to pay, while the Achaeans moored their ships that were
symbolized by horses next to the mouthing of the Simoeis into the Dardanelles
one kilometer north of Ilion, near a mosquito infested swamp (malaria episode
in the Iliad). Also the famous wooden horse was a ship, a prestigious
Achaean ship, seemingly abandoned, drifing by the harbor on the Besik bay,
the guards of the harbor hauled it in, the hidden Achaeans lept out and
caused a panic, the guarda alarmed Ilion, the Trojan army left the citadel
and sped to the Besik bay, in the meantime a section of the Achaean army
approached the citadel, shot fire arrows over the high wall and set the
acropolis on fire - blinding Polyphem, as it were, possibly in the summer
of 1184 BC. Polyphem called his neighbors for help, but nobody came,
the former vassall of Hattusas was no longer protected after the collapse
of the Hittite empire. The sacking of proud Ilion was followed by a heavy
rain ("hell broke loose") that swept away all traces of the Achaean camp
near the mouthing of the Simoeis.

And then we have the main open question of tin. There is no tin in Greece.
The Mycenaean tin came from Central Asia and was bound to pass the
Dardanelles where the rulers of Ilion laid their hands on the precious
cargo - beautiful Helen of the white arms who caused the Trojan war is
the Homeric symbol of tin, abducted by a prince of Ilion. Tin was the
reason of the war that may have been a series of conflicts taken together
for dramatic reasons.

I see a middle way between taking Homer literally and dismissing him as
a fabulist: trying to understand the symbols and locating them in a
historical-geographical context.

By the way, an Englishman identified the Hisarlik as Ilion, so convincingly
that Schliemann invested his money in a costly excavation. The discovery
is not Schliemann's merit alone.
JTEM
2017-02-09 22:11:07 UTC
Permalink
The religious fundamentalist mindset is not limited
to the religious, it seems.




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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/98862929193
Franz Gnaedinger
2017-02-13 08:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Franz Gnaedinger
The geography of ancient Wilusa (W)Ilios Ilion in the fertile Taruwisa
the one-eyed giant who resembles more a wooded mountain top than a man
who eats bread symbolizing Ilion VIIa, his one eye the acropolis overlooking
the wide river plain, his body downtown Ilion VIIa providing protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, his den the harbor on the Besik bay
some three kilometers west of Ilion, his goats and sheep foreign ships
waiting for favorable wind in the harbor, their milk high fees the foreign
sailors had to pay, while the Achaeans moored their ships that were
symbolized by horses next to the mouthing of the Simoeis into the Dardanelles
one kilometer north of Ilion, near a mosquito infested swamp (malaria episode
in the Iliad). Also the famous wooden horse was a ship, a prestigious
Achaean ship, seemingly abandoned, drifing by the harbor on the Besik bay,
the guards of the harbor hauled it in, the hidden Achaeans lept out and
caused a panic, the guarda alarmed Ilion, the Trojan army left the citadel
and sped to the Besik bay, in the meantime a section of the Achaean army
approached the citadel, shot fire arrows over the high wall and set the
acropolis on fire - blinding Polyphem, as it were, possibly in the summer
of 1184 BC. Polyphem called his neighbors for help, but nobody came,
the former vassall of Hattusas was no longer protected after the collapse
of the Hittite empire. The sacking of proud Ilion was followed by a heavy
rain ("hell broke loose") that swept away all traces of the Achaean camp
near the mouthing of the Simoeis.
And then we have the main open question of tin. There is no tin in Greece.
The Mycenaean tin came from Central Asia and was bound to pass the
Dardanelles where the rulers of Ilion laid their hands on the precious
cargo - beautiful Helen of the white arms who caused the Trojan war is
the Homeric symbol of tin, abducted by a prince of Ilion. Tin was the
reason of the war that may have been a series of conflicts taken together
for dramatic reasons.
I see a middle way between taking Homer literally and dismissing him as
a fabulist: trying to understand the symbols and locating them in a
historical-geographical context.
By the way, an Englishman identified the Hisarlik as Ilion, so convincingly
that Schliemann invested his money in a costly excavation. The discovery
is not Schliemann's merit alone.
What is fundamentalistic about my reading of the Bible and Homer?
I explore a middle way between the Scylla of taking an early text literally
and the Charybdis of dismissing it as irrelevant.

JTEM
2017-02-08 08:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Troy is a myth. Schliemann is a confirmed con
man who called whatever he dug up "Troy."





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