Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'

[Jack Linthicum]

Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.






Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'

A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.

The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.

The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.

The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.

In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.

He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.

Damaged paw

Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.

Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.

The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.

However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.

She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.

The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.

The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

[Italo]

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

It is just the same old nonsense. Bronze can not be
radio-carbon dated.

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Italo

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

It is just the same old nonsense. Bronze can not be
radio-carbon dated.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/arch/2002/00000044/00000004/art00007
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t54t066420036820/

[Italo]

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by Italo

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

It is just the same old nonsense. Bronze can not be
radio-carbon dated.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/arch/2002/00000044/00000004/art00007
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t54t066420036820/

That casting such a statue in one piece was not possible in
antiquity is just an assumption, not fact.
La Regina's claim reminds me of the discovery of the grotto
on the Palatine. Carandini saying for sure it's the
Lupercal, vs. La Regina saying there's no way that it could
be the Lupercal.

[Norah_J]

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

It is just the same old nonsense. Bronze can not be radio-carbon dated.

I guess that some scholars of archaeology aren't aware that the Medici
member who became a Pope made a copy. Don't remember the year. Read about it
long ago. It was mentioned in one of the documents one English archaeologist
refered to in a book in 1930's as being in the archives of Villa Medici. Can
you check?

IF that so. The dating of the Bronze surface might have been made from the
replica which is what most tourists see and not the origin.

Inger E

[Norah_johansson]

Resent -since it seems it's not up on all newservers.

Post by Norah_J

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

It is just the same old nonsense. Bronze can not be radio-carbon dated.

I guess that some scholars of archaeology aren't aware that the Medici
member who became a Pope made a copy. Don't remember the year. Read about
it long ago. It was mentioned in one of the documents one English
archaeologist refered to in a book in 1930's as being in the archives of
Villa Medici. Can you check?
IF that so. The dating of the Bronze surface might have been made from the
replica which is what most tourists see and not the origin.
Inger E

[Christopher Ingham]

 Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
Story from BBC NEWS:http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

The Capitoline Wolf was "attributed" to the early fifth century BCE,
not "widely acknowledged," to be so. In any event, it is has been
widely known since the appearance of the 2006 article by Carruba and
La Regina that the age of the statue is in question.

The documented history of the work extends back to the 10th century,
when it stood outside the Lateran Palace. If this statue is later
than that, then it indicates that this is an undocumented
replacement. The twins have always been known to have been produced
by the famous Renaissance artist Antonio Pollaiuolo (pronounced "Po-
lah-YO-lo").

It was not unreasonable to suppose that the statue was indeed
ancient. There are relatively few ancient bronze statues still in
existence, so comparanda are sparse. Bronze she-wolf groups with the
twins Romulus and Remus are attested in several ancient texts. (That
this example was of the statue group mentioned by Cicero [_De
div._1.20] to have been struck by lightning in 65 BCE has always been
dubious, as the former was sculpted as a free-standing animal.) The
curly mane and collar of small curls that frame the face are clearly
in the archaic fashion of representing lions in Etruria;
characteristic archaisms are also seen in the geometry of its outlne
and the sharp turn of the head. An examination in the early 1970s
indicated the statue to be hollow inside with relatively thick bronze
walls -- characteristic of Etruscan bronze-casting. If this statue is
indeed medieval, then it is likely based on an ancient model.

Christopher Ingham

[Poetic Justice]

Christopher=A0Ingham wrote;

(That this example was of the statue
group mentioned by Cicero [_De
div._1.20] to have been struck by lightning
in 65 BCE has always been dubious, as
the former was sculpted as a
free-standing animal.)

Was the Capitoline She-wolf free-standing? (I assume this means with
all 4 paws on the ground and most likely life-size?)

If so;
I snipped this translation from
www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism/Posts/00004857.html (Nov '06)

De Divinatione, 1.20
M. Tullius Cicero (Cicero)
=A0"Here was the Martian beast, the nurse of Roman dominion, Suckling
with life-giving dew, that issued from udders distended, Children
divinely begotten, who sprang from the loins of the War God; Stricken by
lightning she toppled to earth, bearing with her the children; Torn from
her station, she left the prints of her feet in descending".

"Toppled" "Torn" "bearing" and "descending" does make it sound like
that statue was on a pedestal or column and fell off:)?

But I recall that in the Comitium there was a bronze she-wolf statue
sculpted to give the impression that it was walking thru?

So I'm assuming that one was life sized and free standing plus the most
famous/honored in ancient times (exception possibly a Lupercale
statue?)?
And the Capitoline Wolf seems to have be mounted?
Regards, Walter



..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...

[Christopher Ingham]

Christopher Ingham wrote;

(That this example was of the statue
group mentioned by Cicero [_De
div._1.20] to have been struck by lightning
in 65 BCE has always been dubious, as
the former was sculpted as a
free-standing animal.)

 Was the Capitoline She-wolf free-standing? (I assume this means with
all 4 paws on the ground and most likely life-size?)
If so;
I snipped this translation fromwww.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism/Posts/00004857.html(Nov '06)
De Divinatione, 1.20
M. Tullius Cicero (Cicero)
 "Here was the Martian beast, the nurse of Roman dominion, Suckling
with life-giving dew, that issued from udders distended, Children
divinely begotten, who sprang from the loins of the War God; Stricken by
lightning she toppled to earth, bearing with her the children; Torn from
her station, she left the prints of her feet in descending".
 "Toppled" "Torn" "bearing" and "descending" does make it sound like
that statue was on a pedestal or column and fell off:)?

"Free-standing" here was meant in the sense of standing alone, i.e.,
not in a group. In addition to Cicero (_De div._1.20, 2.45,_In
Cat._3.19), Cassius Dio adds the detail that the group was "mounted on
a pedestal" (37.9.1-2).

Although the matter appears now to be moot, the Capitoline Wolf does
not seem to have originally been part of a statuary group. In Roman
art the she-wolf was depicted either alone or with the infant twins. A
she-wolf sculpted in the fifth century BCE likely would not have
included Romulus and Remus, as the myth was not to gain currency until
the late republic.

 But I recall that in the Comitium there was a bronze she-wolf statue
sculpted to give the impression that it was walking thru?

The passage you may have in mind (Pliny,_HN_15.77) is not clear;
either the wolf or the Ficus Navia appeared to move through the Forum:
http://dlib.etc.ucla.edu/projects/Forum/resources/Richardson/Ficus_Navia

 So I'm assuming that one was life sized and free standing plus the most
famous/honored in ancient times

The group struck by lightning was on a pedestal (see above). I don't
know which would have been considered the most famous.

(exception possibly a Lupercale

statue?)?

The statue group near the Lupercal is mentioned in Livy and Dionysius
of Halicarnassus:

"In the same year [296 BCE] the Ogulnii, Gnaeus and Quintus, who were
curule aediles, ... set up near the Rumunal fig tree images of the
founders of the city as infants being suckled by the wolf." -- Livy
10.23.11-2

"Near [the Lupercal] is a sacred precinct in which there is a statue
[which] represents a she-wolf suckling two infants, the figures being
of bronze and of ancient workmanship."
-- Dion. Hal. 1.79.8

Lanciani (_New Tales of Old Rome_[1901], 31, 34-9) was of the opinion
that the Capitolone Wolf eventually stood on the pedestal erected by
Maxentius and dedicated to Mars and "the founders of his eternal
city" (_CIL_6.1220, 31394) which was discovered in the Comitium in
1899.

 And the Capitoline Wolf seems to have be mounted?

Yes.

Christopher Ingham

Regards, Walter
..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...

[Poetic Justice]

Christopher=A0Ingham wrote;

Post by Christopher Ingham
"Free-standing" here was meant in the
sense of standing alone, i.e., not in a
group.

Thanks for clearing that up, confusion on my part:), also for the other
info.

Post by Christopher Ingham
The passage you may have in mind
(Pliny,_HN_15.77) is not clear; either the
wolf or the Ficus Navia appeared to move
http://dlib.etc.ucla.edu/projects/Forum/re
ources/Richardson/Ficus_Navia

IMO that translation definitely has a walking wolf rather than a
walking fig tree:). Also a 'she' rather than an 'it' plus 'bronze'.

"...but was also revered because of the memory of the Ficus Ruminalis
(q.v.) and the she-wolf, "a miracle proclaimed in bronze nearby, as
though she had crossed the Comitium while Attus Navius was taking the
omens."

Post by Christopher Ingham
Lanciani (_New Tales of Old
Rome_[1901], 31, 34-9) was of the
opinion that the Capitolone Wolf
eventually stood on the pedestal erected
by Maxentius and dedicated to Mars and
"the founders of his eternal city"
(_CIL_6.1220, 31394) which was
discovered in the Comitium in
1899.

Thanks I've seen that pedestal quite a few times but never knew of that
theory.
Which would make sense with Maxentius' revival of the old Pagan
beginnings plus he has it close to and facing the Niger Lapis/Volcanal.

And of course the only photo I have taken from atop this ramp
www.sionmc.com/Rome/forum/comitium/pages/ramp.htm of the top of the
pedestal has a small tree blocking any sign foot holes :(.

What always interested me about that pedestal is the Damnatio Memoriae
about Maxentius on it.

The 1st 3 lines read;
'Marti invicto patri et aeternae urbis suae conditoribus'
The 4th line is erased (Maxentius).
And the 5th line reads 'Invictvs=95Avg'.

Also on the other 2 or 3 sides are hundreds of names in columns which I
assume were Senators?
Regards, Walter



..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...

[Italo]

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
Story from BBC NEWS:http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

The Capitoline Wolf was "attributed" to the early fifth century BCE,
not "widely acknowledged," to be so. In any event, it is has been
widely known since the appearance of the 2006 article by Carruba and
La Regina that the age of the statue is in question.
The documented history of the work extends back to the 10th century,
when it stood outside the Lateran Palace. If this statue is later
than that, then it indicates that this is an undocumented
replacement. The twins have always been known to have been produced
by the famous Renaissance artist Antonio Pollaiuolo (pronounced "Po-
lah-YO-lo").
It was not unreasonable to suppose that the statue was indeed
ancient. There are relatively few ancient bronze statues still in
existence, so comparanda are sparse. Bronze she-wolf groups with the
twins Romulus and Remus are attested in several ancient texts. (That
this example was of the statue group mentioned by Cicero [_De
div._1.20] to have been struck by lightning in 65 BCE has always been
dubious, as the former was sculpted as a free-standing animal.) The
curly mane and collar of small curls that frame the face are clearly
in the archaic fashion of representing lions in Etruria;
characteristic archaisms are also seen in the geometry of its outlne
and the sharp turn of the head. An examination in the early 1970s
indicated the statue to be hollow inside with relatively thick bronze
walls -- characteristic of Etruscan bronze-casting. If this statue is
indeed medieval, then it is likely based on an ancient model.
Christopher Ingham

There is no proof at all that it is not an ancient original.
The age of the dirt inside provides at best a terminus ante
quem. Thermoluminescence dating is useless in this case too,
as that only gives a date for when the bronze was last
re-patinated (i.e. heating the piece in a fire and brushing
it with wax to freshen up the appearance).


The reporting is not consistent either, now it's not longer
from the 13th century?

AP:
"Carruba said carbon dating of bits of dirt and clay
indicate the statue was cast in the 7th or 8th century A.D.
She also claimed the techniques of casting such a bronze
work were developed in medieval times.

Her theory has skeptics.

Alessandro Naso, an Etruscan expert at the University of
Molise, contended that Carruba's "concluding that it isn't
ancient is based on indirect proof."

"Leaving aside the point of pride" about Rome's symbol,
"arguments for the medieval are weak," Naso said by phone
Thursday.

Archaeologist Nicoletta Pagliardi was also cautious about
Carruba's theory. Lupa's origins "are really uncertain," she
said in a phone interview.

Pagliardi said the statue would have likely been
"manhandled" over many centuries, and so carbon dating might
be testing substances that contaminated the bronze long
after its creation.

Parisi Presicce, the Capitoline Museums director, said that
in medieval times Rome's symbol was considered to be a lion.
He said that weakened arguments that Lupa was made during
that period."
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iKRAm-pRb6hO4tk_K7zTDZ_ZwC4wD91RH6NG0

[Christopher Ingham]

Post by Italo

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
Story from BBC NEWS:http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

The Capitoline Wolf was "attributed" to the early fifth century BCE,
not "widely acknowledged," to be so.  In any event, it is has been
widely known since the appearance of the 2006 article by Carruba and
La Regina that the age of the statue is in question.
The documented history of the work extends back to the 10th century,
when it stood outside the Lateran Palace.  If this statue is later
than that, then it indicates that this is an undocumented
replacement.  The twins have always been known to have been produced
by the famous Renaissance artist Antonio Pollaiuolo (pronounced "Po-
lah-YO-lo").
It was not unreasonable to suppose that the statue was indeed
ancient.  There are relatively few ancient bronze statues still in
existence, so comparanda are sparse.  Bronze she-wolf groups with the
twins Romulus and Remus are attested in several ancient texts.  (That
this example was of the statue group mentioned by Cicero [_De
div._1.20] to have been struck by lightning in 65 BCE has always been
dubious, as the former was sculpted as a free-standing animal.)  The
curly mane and collar of small curls that frame the face are clearly
in the archaic fashion of representing lions in Etruria;
characteristic archaisms are also seen in the geometry of its outlne
and the sharp turn of the head.  An examination in the early 1970s
indicated the statue to be hollow inside with relatively thick bronze
walls -- characteristic of Etruscan bronze-casting. If this statue is
indeed medieval, then it is likely based on an ancient model.
Christopher Ingham

There is no proof at all that it is not an ancient original.
The age of the dirt inside provides at best a terminus ante
quem. Thermoluminescence dating is useless in this case too,
as that only gives a date for when the bronze was last
re-patinated (i.e. heating the piece in a fire and brushing
it with wax to freshen up the appearance).
The reporting is not consistent either, now it's not longer
from the 13th century?
"Carruba said carbon dating of bits of dirt and clay
indicate the statue was cast in the 7th or 8th century A.D.
She also claimed the techniques of casting such a bronze
work were developed in medieval times.
Her theory has skeptics.
Alessandro Naso, an Etruscan expert at the University of
Molise, contended that Carruba's "concluding that it isn't
ancient is based on indirect proof."
"Leaving aside the point of pride" about Rome's symbol,
"arguments for the medieval are weak," Naso said by phone
Thursday.
Archaeologist Nicoletta Pagliardi was also cautious about
Carruba's theory. Lupa's origins "are really uncertain," she
said in a phone interview.
Pagliardi said the statue would have likely been
"manhandled" over many centuries, and so carbon dating might
be testing substances that contaminated the bronze long
after its creation.
Parisi Presicce, the Capitoline Museums director, said that
in medieval times Rome's symbol was considered to be a lion.
He said that weakened arguments that Lupa was made during
that period."http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iKRAm-pRb6hO4tk_K7zTDZ_ZwC4wD91RH6NG0- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I guess the jury's still out on this.

If the statue should be found to actually be ancient, there is still
no evidence for its provenance. There is (was) not agreement as to
whether it is a product of Etruscan, Etrusco-Italian, or Greek
workmanship.

Christopher Ingham

[Hayabusa]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 03:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham

Post by Christopher Ingham
I guess the jury's still out on this.
If the statue should be found to actually be ancient, there is still
no evidence for its provenance. There is (was) not agreement as to
whether it is a product of Etruscan, Etrusco-Italian, or Greek
workmanship.
Christopher Ingham

Is anything known about a geochemical analysis of the bronze? I mean,
isotopes and trace elements can tell something if the bronze is not
recycled with strongly hybrid signals. I could imagine that 12th C CE
bronze (fresh ore) might differ from 5th C BCE bronze (fresh ore)
because in all likelihood the origin of the ore is different. Of
course this is not unambiguous either, but the more constraints, the
better.

Hayabusa

[Christopher Ingham]

Post by Hayabusa
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 03:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham

Post by Christopher Ingham
I guess the jury's still out on this.
If the statue should be found to actually be ancient, there is still
no evidence for its provenance.  There is (was) not agreement as to
whether it is a product of Etruscan, Etrusco-Italian, or Greek
workmanship.
Christopher Ingham

Is anything known about a geochemical analysis of the bronze? I mean,
isotopes and trace elements can tell something if the bronze is not
recycled with strongly hybrid signals. I could imagine that 12th C CE
bronze (fresh ore) might differ from 5th C BCE bronze (fresh ore)
because in all likelihood the origin of the ore is different. Of
course this is not unambiguous either, but the more constraints, the
better.
Hayabusa

The recent tests appear to be restricted to radiocarbon dating of the
dirt and clay pieces from the statue (as noted above by Italo). The
results of a geochemical analysis, published in 2002, indicated the
casting core of the statue to be a homogeneous substance and specified
that the foundry area was in the lower Tiber valley:

G. Lombardi, "A petrographic study of the casting core of the Lupa
Capitolina bronze sculpture (Rome, Italy) and identification of its
provenance," _Archaeometry_44 (2002): pp. 601-12:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/arch/2002/00000044/00000004/art00007?crawler=true

Abstract: "Within the framework of a major project of investigations
on the Lupa Capitolina (Capitoline She-Wolf) bronze sculpture, samples
of the casting core collected from its interior were analysed. The
results of X-ray diffractometry, thermal analyses, chemistry and thin
sections revealed that the casting core is homogeneous, as if it came
from the same microenvironment. The composition of the casting core
led to circumscription of the provenance area of the material used in
the preparation of the sculpture's inner mould, and thus the location
of the bronze foundry area in the lower Tiber valley, close to Rome."

I don't know if any chronological inferences were drawn pertaining to
comparison samples.

Christopher Ingham

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by Hayabusa
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 03:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham

Post by Christopher Ingham
I guess the jury's still out on this.
If the statue should be found to actually be ancient, there is still
no evidence for its provenance. There is (was) not agreement as to
whether it is a product of Etruscan, Etrusco-Italian, or Greek
workmanship.
Christopher Ingham

Is anything known about a geochemical analysis of the bronze? I mean,
isotopes and trace elements can tell something if the bronze is not
recycled with strongly hybrid signals. I could imagine that 12th C CE
bronze (fresh ore) might differ from 5th C BCE bronze (fresh ore)
because in all likelihood the origin of the ore is different. Of
course this is not unambiguous either, but the more constraints, the
better.
Hayabusa

The recent tests appear to be restricted to radiocarbon dating of the
dirt and clay pieces from the statue (as noted above by Italo). The
results of a geochemical analysis, published in 2002, indicated the
casting core of the statue to be a homogeneous substance and specified
G. Lombardi, "A petrographic study of the casting core of the Lupa
Capitolina bronze sculpture (Rome, Italy) and identification of its
provenance," _Archaeometry_44 (2002): pp. 601-12:http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/arch/2002/00000044/00000004...
Abstract: "Within the framework of a major project of investigations
on the Lupa Capitolina (Capitoline She-Wolf) bronze sculpture, samples
of the casting core collected from its interior were analysed. The
results of X-ray diffractometry, thermal analyses, chemistry and thin
sections revealed that the casting core is homogeneous, as if it came
from the same microenvironment. The composition of the casting core
led to circumscription of the provenance area of the material used in
the preparation of the sculpture's inner mould, and thus the location
of the bronze foundry area in the lower Tiber valley, close to Rome."
I don't know if any chronological inferences were drawn pertaining to
comparison samples.
Christopher Ingham

It has been stated that the results are known and those with the
knowledge are reluctant to make their findings known.


"The new information about the epoch of the Capitoline bronze have
been held back for about a year now from the public and experts," La
Regina wrote.

With the future - or rather, the past - of one of the city-run
Capitoline Museums star pieces at stake, museums director Claudio
Parisi Presicce insisted that his institution wasn't trying to hide
data that could subtract centuries from the she-wolf's existence.

The data "aren't definitive yet, and we hope we can succeed in giving
a definitive date" to the statue through the results later this year
of carbon dating, Parisi Presicce was quoted as telling the Italian
news agency ANSA.

Parisi Presicce's office confirmed the quotes, but said he was
traveling in Italy Thursday and could not be reached for further
comment.

[Christopher Ingham]

Post by Jack Linthicum

Post by Christopher Ingham

Post by Hayabusa
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 03:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Ingham

Post by Christopher Ingham
I guess the jury's still out on this.
If the statue should be found to actually be ancient, there is still
no evidence for its provenance.  There is (was) not agreement as to
whether it is a product of Etruscan, Etrusco-Italian, or Greek
workmanship.
Christopher Ingham

Is anything known about a geochemical analysis of the bronze? I mean,
isotopes and trace elements can tell something if the bronze is not
recycled with strongly hybrid signals. I could imagine that 12th C CE
bronze (fresh ore) might differ from 5th C BCE bronze (fresh ore)
because in all likelihood the origin of the ore is different. Of
course this is not unambiguous either, but the more constraints, the
better.
Hayabusa

The recent tests appear to be restricted to radiocarbon dating of the
dirt and clay pieces from the statue (as noted above by Italo).  The
results of a geochemical analysis, published in 2002, indicated the
casting core of the statue to be a homogeneous substance and specified
G. Lombardi, "A petrographic study of the casting core of the Lupa
Capitolina bronze sculpture (Rome, Italy) and identification of its
provenance," _Archaeometry_44 (2002):  pp. 601-12:http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/arch/2002/00000044/00000004...
Abstract: "Within the framework of a major project of investigations
on the Lupa Capitolina (Capitoline She-Wolf) bronze sculpture, samples
of the casting core collected from its interior were analysed. The
results of X-ray diffractometry, thermal analyses, chemistry and thin
sections revealed that the casting core is homogeneous, as if it came
from the same microenvironment. The composition of the casting core
led to circumscription of the provenance area of the material used in
the preparation of the sculpture's inner mould, and thus the location
of the bronze foundry area in the lower Tiber valley, close to Rome."
I don't know if any chronological inferences were drawn pertaining to
comparison samples.
Christopher Ingham

It has been stated that the results are known and those with the
knowledge are reluctant to make their findings known.
"The new information about the epoch of the Capitoline bronze have
been held back for about a year now from the public and experts," La
Regina wrote.
With the future - or rather, the past - of one of the city-run
Capitoline Museums star pieces at stake, museums director Claudio
Parisi Presicce insisted that his institution wasn't trying to hide
data that could subtract centuries from the she-wolf's existence.
The data "aren't definitive yet, and we hope we can succeed in giving
a definitive date" to the statue through the results later this year
of carbon dating, Parisi Presicce was quoted as telling the Italian
news agency ANSA.
Parisi Presicce's office confirmed the quotes, but said he was
traveling in Italy Thursday and could not be reached for further
comment.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

My statement was in reference to the 2002 I was citing; specifically,
was the physical profile of the bronze compared to those (if any) of
other archaic sculptures.

Christopher Ingham

[Norah_J]

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.

Are you talking about the little sculpture or about the origin replaced by a
replica in Medieval Age?/ Inger E

Post by Jack Linthicum
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm

[Norah_johansson]

Resent -since it seems it's not up on all newservers

Post by Norah_J

Post by Jack Linthicum
Another example of the division between written "history" and
contemporary ability to ascertain the true age of a supposedly ancient
statue.
Famed Roman statue 'not ancient'
A statue symbolising the mythical origins and power of Rome, long
thought to have been made around 500BC, has been found to date from
the 1200s.

Are you talking about the little sculpture or about the origin replaced by
a replica in Medieval Age?/ Inger E

Post by Jack Linthicum
The statue depicts a she-wolf suckling Remus and his twin brother
Romulus - who is said to have founded Rome.
The statue of the wolf was carbon-dated last year, but the test
results have only now been made public.
The figures of Romulus and Remus have already been shown to be 15th
Century additions to the statue.
In a front page article in the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica,
Rome's former top heritage official, Professor Adriano La Regina, said
about 20 tests were carried out on the she-wolf at the University of
Salerno.
He said the results of the tests gave a very precise indication that
the statue was manufactured in the 13th Century.
Damaged paw
Academics having been arguing about the origins of the statue - known
as the Lupa Capitolina - since the 18th Century.
Until recently it was widely acknowledged that the statue was an
Etruscan work dating from the 5th Century BC.
The Roman statesman, Cicero, who lived in the 1st Century BC,
describes a statue of a she-wolf that was damaged by a lightning
strike - the Lupa Capitolina has a damaged paw.
However, in 2006, an Italian art historian and restorer, Anna Maria
Carruba, argued that the statue had been cast in a single piece using
a wax mould - a technique unknown in the ancient world.
She suggested the damage to the Lupa Capitolina's paw was the result
of a mistake in the moulding process.
The statue is among the most important works on display at the
Capitoline museums in Rome.
The Lupa Capitolina is the emblem of the Serie A football club, Roma,
and was the symbol used for the 1960 Rome Olympics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7499469.stm